Natalie Baker: Can neurofeedback help treat ADHD?

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Episode 195 with Natalie Baker.

“Neurofeedback is really about identifying maladaptive brain waves, then training the brain to correct them.”

Natalie is a licensed psychotherapist, a certified brain health coach, and a dedicated Buddhist practitioner and teacher based in New York City. Given her Western training in psychology and psychotherapy and her Eastern training in meditation, Natalie brings a broader, holistic perspective to mental health and well-being.

Natalie began integrating neurofeedback technology into her therapy practice after witnessing its profound impact on trauma clients and those with ADHD and anxiety. She later founded the Neurofeedback Training Company to offer in-office and home neurofeedback programs nationally.

Natalie discusses the benefits of this science-backed, non-invasive therapy, and how neurofeedback can help train our brains to function more effectively, including improved focus, reduced anxiety, more regulated emotions, and better sleep.

If you’ve never heard of neurofeedback — or if you’ve heard about it and would like to know more about how it might apply to ADHD, then you don’t want to miss this episode because we go over all the details, including who it’s for, how it works, and how much it costs.

Exclusive discount: Use code ADHD75 for $75 off a home neurofeedback rental at neurofeedbacktraining.com

Websites: neurofeedbacktraining.com ; buddhistpsychotherapyny.com

Instagram: @neurofeedbacktrainingco

Links & Resources:

Neurofeedback Training Co Youtube Channel

Burnout: The Secret to Unlocking the Stress Cycle by Emily Nagoski & Amelia Nagoski

The Disruptors

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Episode edited by E Podcast Productions

Natalie Baker 0:00
I think we all know what reactive communication is, right? When we're just like, you know that part of the brain is just being snippy or being anxious or reacting to the problem, not thinking things through. And so there's emotional communication, and it's like a ping pong game.

Katy Weber 0:25
Hello and welcome to the women and ADHD podcast. I'm your host. Katy Weber, I was diagnosed with ADHD at the age of 45 and it completely turned my world upside down. I've been looking back at so much of my life, school, jobs, my relationships, all of it with this new lens, and it has been nothing short of overwhelming. I quickly discovered I was not the only woman to have this experience, and now I interview other women who like me discovered in adulthood they have ADHD and are finally feeling like they understand who they are and how to best lean into their strengths, both professionally and personally. Well, hello and welcome back. Okay, before we begin, I'd love to share with you part of this review from a listener named City Mouse on the Apple podcast platform. It's called Katy and her guests are changing my life. I started listening to Katy interviews over a year ago, first, it was comforting to hear what she and her guests had to stay as it showed I wasn't alone. After listening to many episodes, I have learned a lot about ADHD and myself. I have begun following some of Katy s guests, and have listened to some of Katy s episodes more than once. I also enrolled in the group coaching program and a one on one with Katy all worthwhile. I have made friends with some like minded gals from the sessions, and we are In Touch Weekly for support and high quality camaraderie. All of this has been invaluable. I highly recommend giving Katy podcasts a listen. Well, thank you, City Mouse. I'm so glad to hear this. And one of the best things about our group coaching program is the close friendships that can come out of it, honestly, feeling validated and understood is such an important part of this journey for us now more than ever. So if you're listening right now and thinking you could use some extra support, whether through group coaching or one on one sessions, make sure to head to women and adhd.com our unique brand of ADHD coaching is designed to help you better understand and work with your weird, wonderful brain, while providing the kind of accountability and structure you need to start thriving as always, that link is in the show notes. Okay, so here we are at Episode 195 in which I interview Natalie Baker. Natalie is a licensed psychotherapist, a certified brain health coach and a dedicated Buddhist practitioner and Teacher based in New York City. So given her Western training in psychology and psychotherapy and her Eastern training in meditation, Natalie brings a broader holistic perspective to mental health and well being, Natalie began integrating Neurofeedback technology into her therapy practice after witnessing firsthand its profound impact on trauma clients and those with ADHD and anxiety, she later founded the neurofeedback training company to offer her Neurofeedback programs nationally. Natalie shares the benefits of this science backed non invasive therapy and how Neurofeedback can help train our brains to function more effectively, including improved focus, reduced anxiety, more regulated emotions and better sleep. If you've heard of Neurofeedback and you're curious about how it might apply to ADHD, or if you've never heard of neurofeedback, you don't want to miss this episode, because we go over all the details, including who this therapy is for, how it works and how much it costs. Speaking of which, after our interview, Natalie reached out to offer an exclusive discount for women and ADHD listeners. So if you'd like to give Neurofeedback a try, you can head to neurofeedback training.com and use the code ADHD 75 for $75 off a home Neurofeedback rental. Again, that's code ADHD 75 and you can find all of that information in the show notes. Okay, there is a lot of fascinating information packed into this hour. So strap yourself in and enjoy my conversation with Natalie. All right. Well, welcome Natalie. Thank you for joining me. I'm glad to be having this conversation. I have so many questions. I'm going to try to, like, keep this to an hour, but yeah, let's so. So you said that you weren't sure if you have ADHD. I don't know if that was you or if that was your assistant who filled out the form, but I'm mostly curious about what led to your interest in this population in general?

Natalie Baker 4:45
Yeah. Well, thank you for inviting me. As I was saying before we got on, I just so enjoy your interviews. And I'm a big advocate for women, supporting women and educating women around health topics. Men. Health and otherwise, because, and I think perhaps where the the the question of ADHD for me came in was when I started perimenopause. So I'm 52 and now I'm full on in menopause, but I started having pretty significant cognitive issues. And one of the things in my psychotherapy practice that I offer is neurofeedback, which, you know, I'm sure we'll, we'll talk more about, but I just thought it was so interesting that I do Neurofeedback regularly, and I was starting to have these real kind of issues with, I call it like the white noise of being able to follow through on, you know, the executive functioning tasks that were bigger tasks. And I was like, do I have ADHD? I don't think so. But what is going on for me? And it took about four years for me to figure out that it was my testosterone levels plummeting that were leading to this, and it was only through talking to a girlfriend of mine who I found out that the issue I knew about progesterone and estrogen. I didn't know about testosterone and women and what that does to cognitive functioning. So that was kind of my sort of road into the like, what is going on with my brain and what are the supports that I need to be able to function properly? Yeah.

Katy Weber 6:41
Interesting. Well, I mean, that's, I think that's a conversation where I have a lot on this podcast, because so many women now are being diagnosed with ADHD in perimenopause, right? And then. So there's so many factors where it's like, well, you get to this time in your life where you're tired of putting up with a lot of the social, you know, social pressures of, you know, that we were sold as girls, which is, you know, the you can have it all motherhood and a job and working and the mental load and all of that. And it's like, at some point in your 30s and 40s, women are just like, No, I'm done with that. And then you start to really, you know, uncover a lot of these issues around, like you said, the cognitive decline and working memory and executive functioning. And there's a lot of questions about, like, is this ADHD, you know, were the signs all of their all along, or is this something that's brand new, what is even considered clinically significant in terms of that struggle? Like, I feel like I was diagnosed in 2020 I have been talking about this topic non stop for almost for four years and counting, and I still, at the end of the day, I'm sort of like, what is happening here, right? Like, what is, what is this? You know, a lot of the time, I'm also sort of, you know, I also feel like maybe, you know, there's a neuro divergence that's there throughout your life's lifetime, but there's peaks and valleys in terms of your ability to function, right? And, you know, motherhood was a really difficult time for a lot of women, and now perimenopause is another one for other reasons in middle school, right? So it's like, we see these markers in our life. I could go on forever, and I'm going to stop myself now, because I'm just realizing I'm like, I am about to go off on this whole soapbox anyway. I want to know more about neurofeedback because I'm super fascinated with I guess you know how you got interested in neurofeedback, and you, you know, you mentioned that a lot of your clients back into their ADHD diagnoses as a result of neurofeedback. So there's like three questions in there. Let's start with how you first got interested in Neurofeedback and brain training, right?

Natalie Baker 8:48
Yeah. I mean, it was an interesting confluence of circumstance that led to it. I'm also a long time meditator, and so I was teaching a meditation weekend back in 2011 and one of the participants had been approached to fund a peak performance Neurofeedback clinic in Manhattan. And so during lunch, he asked me, Natalie, have you heard of neurofeedback? Because he knew that I was a psychotherapist. And I was like, No, I've never heard of that. So he explained a little bit that it was really identifying the brain wave patterns that are maladaptive and correcting those that have to do with ADHD anxiety, a bunch of conditions. You know, we can look at the brain in terms of its chemical communication as well as its electrical communication. And so neurofeedback is really about identifying those maladaptive brain waves and then giving the brain the opportunity to correct them. And so as a psychotherapist. Because my curiosity was peak, because one of the challenges we have with symptoms is that we know that automatic functioning brain is performing patterns, whether it's chemical or electrical, that are not aligned with the here and now, and so it's like, how do you get that part of the brain to stop doing those patterns? Right? This is a part of the brain we don't consciously control, the limbic brain, which is more of our sort of reptilian brain, versus our prefrontal cortex, which is our willful brain. It's our thoughtful brain, it's the breaks on emotions and impulses brain, and you can see on MRIs that there are a lot of neural pathways going from that limbic brain, sending communication out to the prefrontal cortex, but not a lot that go back to that limbic brain. So my curiosity was piqued because I was looking for, and I'm always looking for, you know, what are the tools that are going to help my clients succeed? So I went and did Neurofeedback on myself. I had a couple of my clients go and do it, and really found that, wow, this, this was going to be a good support for my clients. And so that was the the beginning of my exploration of brain training. And you know, I wasn't interested in technology, per se, but it's worthwhile to explore like the brain is the new frontier, and our understanding of the brain as you know, and as you've discussed with many of your listeners, right when you go to see providers, they don't necessarily understand the brain or what's going to be best for your brain, and part of that is because, you know, we're still learning about what this organ does. I mean, just to give you a reference point, when I studied the brain in the early 90s, in my Neuropsychology courses, we were taught that the brain was a fixed system, and that if you could have damage in one area of the brain, say, from a stroke and You lose speech, that you've lost that forever. And so there was no idea of neuroplasticity. I mean, it was basically the equivalent of, like, the earth is flat. And so, you know, that's part of the the whole kind of challenge is like, you know, continuing to be open to, you know, not understanding and continuing to learn about what's going to help us to be at our best.

Katy Weber 12:45
Yeah, wow. Okay, so let's walk through the process here. So what exactly happens in terms of the your brain receiving feedback? How is that given? How is that received, and how does that? How does your brain, then know to train itself? I mean, literally, like from the beginning, are you are there are wires involved, scans. What are we talking

Natalie Baker 13:11
about here? I love that you're touching your head with your fingers, because you're absolutely right. So what is neurofeedback? How does the brain, you know, receive that feedback and rewire itself, which is a great question. And so I should just start by saying that the world of Neurofeedback can be very confusing for people, because that term is really explaining a process, not the technical pieces of a device. And so basically, neurofeedback is an extension of biofeedback, only now, instead of getting like, you know, skin temperature change, and so, I'm going to do deep breathing to reset my you know, stress response, which is biofeedback, neurofeedback is really about monitoring brain waves and then giving feedback when the brain is in maladaptive patterns. And so the history of neurofeedback is basically that as computers got to be the speed of the human brain, you could create a more and more sophisticated Neurofeedback system that actually can give real time. So when people explore neurofeedback, they'll learn that there's two basic clinical systems, and I'm talking about sort of clinical grade neurofeedback, as opposed to the new consumer products that are like headbands that you can put on. So in the world of Neurofeedback that can impact ADHD, there is the first generation, which was the design, was you needed to do a brain map. So you would take a sort of snapshot of which brain. Waves are maladaptive, and then the trainer sets protocols to basically nudge that brain out of those maladaptive patterns and into adaptive ones. And so that kind of neurofeedback is done in office with a trainer who has advanced training in basically brain tweaking for for just a basic way of saying that. And then what you notice over time is that with ADHD, you're better able to focus, you're emotionally more settled, you're sleeping better. And then at some point you'll decide to to stop the training. And then there's the the latest generation of neurofeedback, which is the system I use, and it's fully automated, so it's purely giving feedback to that brain, millisecond by millisecond about what it's doing that's maladaptive. So going to your point of like, pointing to your head? Yes, we put eg sensors on the head, so that's just to collect the electrical activity of the brain. It's sent into a computer that's looking for what's called turbulence, which is when the brain is about to change states it does a particular kind of electrical dance. And so this software, just to give you an idea of how quickly that brain is operating, it takes data 256, times per second, looking for turbulence or state change, and when it registers state change in that millisecond, it interrupts music that you're listening to. And so with neurofeedback, you use either visual feedback or auditory feedback. And the reason why auditory is the best is because that limbic brain, that part of the brain that produces these maladaptive patterns that are so frustrating and ADHD, that part of the brain uses auditory feedback to know change in the environment at all times. So even when we're sleeping, we can be listening for change, because that part of the brain is in charge of survival. And a big part of what we're working with with these maladaptive patterns is we're working with the stress response, the fight, flight, freeze, energy, which the brain is supposed to do only when there's immediate danger. We need to punch it, we need to flee the situation, and we need to play dead, and then we're supposed to then come back into a state of regulation. But what happens with the brain is the brain likes to use its energy efficiently, and so it'll take little cues from the environment and go, Oh, now it's like them, okay, I'm just going to keep doing that habitual pattern. And that's really what we call symptoms, is when the brain is stuck on autopilot doing these maladaptive patterns. So going back to what the system is doing, you know, when you're doing a session is it's looking for turbulence, which is state change. When that happens, it stops the music you're listening to, which cues that automatic functioning brain pay attention to yourself. And so in the same way that if you're having lunch with a friend and you didn't realize you were totally lost in thought, and then your friend calls your name, and you, in that millisecond, recognize everything, right? You recognize I was totally lost in thought, didn't hear what she said. But now I have a choice. Do I want to go back and and chew on those thoughts some more, or do I want to be present with my friend and have this lunch we're having? And so that's what happens for your automatic functioning brain. Every time that music is interrupted, it pays attention to everything. And so if it's doing something that's maladaptive, right? So it's going into the scanning hyper arousal, right, that, and it's sitting in a safe room, the brain is going to go, why am I doing that? I'm going to pivot back to being calm and focused, because that's appropriate for the here and now. And so during a Neurofeedback session, your brain gets this feedback over and over again, so it can pivot to be in alignment with the here and now. But the actual more profound thing that happens so a session. Is 33 minutes, and people can do it in an office environment, or they can do it at home, and particularly with ADHD, I always recommend to my clients, if they can to do it at home, because multiple family members can do it, and we know that ADHD, you know, is often passed down. That's part of the neurodivergent piece of it. And so when the the session is running for those 33 minutes, a person can be reading a book. They can have their eyes closed, focused on their breathing, they can be on their phone, although I don't recommend that, because I want people to really be aware of what's happening in their bodies. So felt experience and noticing shifting from being dysregulated to being regulated is really important to me, and I can talk more about what when you have ADHD, what is? What does that feel like? But at the end of each session, there's a whole series of sessions I encourage people to do. And the bigger thing that's happening when you do brain training over time is that the brain is learning to function differently. And so this is really the key thing, is that we want that brain to have the opportunity to learn a new practice. And this new practice is come into the present moment, gather your data from the here and now, then you'll make a better decision, right? You'll use your energy more efficiently, and, you know, you'll have a better outcome. And the brain is designed to process information, right? There's two big things the brain does. It processes information. It minimizes the use of glucose, the main food of the brain, and it tries to minimize pain. And you could say that those are the kind of the core things that the brain is always trying to do. So the really great thing about neurofeedback is we're basically giving that brain the opportunity to fine tune itself based on the way it's designed to function. And so once someone's done like a sort of a foundation series of sessions, the brain has learned that I'm going to use the present moment to gather my data, and then I'm going to make better decisions. So if I need my focusing brain waves right now, I'm going to use those, because I'm in a safe environment. I don't need to be in that fight flight or freeze energy. And so the cool thing is, the brain naturally starts to change. And when it's really learned to do this practice, that's when we see symptoms shifting like, Oh, wow. I was able to just, like, organize the schedule there. I wasn't frustrated. I could actually follow through, right? That's the kind of things people report when that brain has really learned to do that practice on its own.

Katy Weber 23:29
And it sounds like, you know, that's sort of the same end goal of medication, right? It sounds like that's what stimulant medication is also trying to accomplish through its own pharmacological route, but it sounds like we're all trying to get to that same place.

Natalie Baker 23:44
Yeah, exactly. I mean, you could say medication is like scaffolding, right? It's like, the brain's not allowed to, like, go into to patterning that's not effective. It's like, use that focusing brain ways. But the question is, what happens when you take away that scaffolding, right? Has the brain learned, and is it capable of doing this when it doesn't have the scaffolding there for it? And that's, I think part of the frustrating piece for for a lot of people, is that they find that when I'm on the medication, I can focus, I can do my tasks, whatever, but then when you take that scaffolding away, I'm sort of back where I was. And this is one of the things I wanted to just chat with you about, if, if it makes sense, is one of the things I've really observed. You know, I've been doing Neurofeedback for 12 years as part of my practice, and it's really taught me to be very holistic in how I approach how do we how do we support ourselves being our best version of ourselves? And we are all trained to think in terms of like diagnosis, one intervention. Going to be the thing, right, whatever that thing is, and so I feel like part of my my role as an educator is to help us unlearn that habit. Because the brain is a dynamic system. We are dynamic beings. There are so many things that support us, and to really be able to recognize and learn what are good supports for me, and when should I bring those supports in, as opposed to, why isn't this one thing working for me?

Katy Weber 25:36
Oh, absolutely. I mean, you know, I've spoken many times about how frustrating it is that, you know, when a GP diagnoses you with ADHD, or even a psychiatrist, they say, Here's your medication, goodbye. And there's like, no conversation about behaviors. There's no conversation about lifestyle supports. And I mean, you know they are. There are a lot of roots to regulation, and living happily with ADHD medication is one of many. Now, okay, this is, like, super dizzying to me, so I need to, like, backtrack a lot. So when you are doing this 33 minute test, if I'm in a calm environment, say at home on my couch with my eyes closed, when this test is happening, I don't feel like there's a lot of stimulus change. There's not, I mean, I'm pretty regulated in that situation. So like, how much does what you are being exposed to in that 33 minutes affect the training and the feedback? Right? Because it feels like, if I'm in a calm state, what is my brain learning from that? You know, there's nothing to really change. Or am I misunderstanding what's happening here?

Natalie Baker 26:46
Well, no, that's a great question, and totally right on in that, you know, shouldn't I be in a kind of a stressful state, or trying to, like, do some task or whatever, in order to really get the most of the training. So I should just refine how it works, which is that what we're doing is we're showing the brain everything that it's doing, millisecond by millisecond, and that brain decides what's maladaptive. And so it's really working on the process of how the brain makes decisions, rather than really targeted like, hey, I want you to see exactly when you're in your you know, hyper arousal when you shouldn't be, because we're teaching the brain that whenever it comes into the present, it's going to make A better decision. So even though you might not be in that state of, you know, arousal during the session, the brain is still training, because it is still doing, like, hundreds of actions per second, and having that opportunity to see which ones are maladaptive. So the way this system is designed, and part of why I chose it over the other systems is because it shows the brain everything that it's doing. And so you know from yourself and talking to other people, we don't have just one issue, right? And so, you know, this is one of the beautiful things. It's like, well, is this ADHD? Is this ADHD and anxiety? Is there some trauma in there? Was there, like, couple of head injuries that, really, you know, have done some damage, you know, so I'm so relieved, because I don't have to do that detective work, right? Everything that the brain does is maladaptive. It's going to see, and it's learning, even when we're, you know, lying on the couch in a calm state, because the brain is constantly performing functions that we don't even think about. Thankfully, yeah,

Katy Weber 29:04
oh my goodness, so interesting, right? And, you know, and I think it really touches on a lot of the topics that come up throughout my discussions on this podcast about, like you said, Where does trauma fit into this, right? Where does dysregulated nervous system fit into a lifetime as a woman, as a feminist, as, you know, a neurodivergent as a mother, like all of these ways in which we experience these small t traumas throughout our lifetime, you know, how do we even begin to parse how that affects? You know, the a lot of the things that we start to see in our 40s, pre in perimenopause, in terms of executive dysfunction, but also emotional dysregulation and all of that stuff. So it's like, I don't know if we're going to be able to but I think, you know, one of the nice things is that if you, if you hone in on executive functioning, then it doesn't really matter if it was a traumatic brain injury or a genetic or lifetime of trauma like it. Really you can sort of, there's a lot of ways in which you can train yourself and learn strategies based on that. So I'm curious like, how does Neurofeedback help with regulating our nervous systems and dealing with a lot of the the emotional dysregulation? Asking for a friend, no. But like, you know, because I think that's a huge part of being an adult woman with ADHD, is that, like zero to 100 emotional dysregulation that we can't seem to control, no matter how much deep breathing we do throughout our regulated state.

Natalie Baker 30:39
Yeah, and I think the the basic principle that's helpful to understand about what are the emotions, right? Because our emotions so going back to that limbic brain, which is a primitive part of our brain, it's our survival brain. It's that fight, flight, freeze brain that is supposed to be responsive to danger, and the brain has a very specific definition of danger, which is, am I going to receive bodily harm in less than a minute? Then I need to have that limbic brain on fire, active and in like reaction time going into that fight flight, which is what we call hyper arousal. That's our, you know, our heart rate goes up, our minds start racing. That's kind of the flight energy. Or we become irritable, angry, reactive, snippy. The sympathetic nervous system takes over. We stop digesting food. We're shallow breathing, and that is also like anchor, irritability, jealousy, our thoughts. We can't stay with thoughts, because what's happening is that we're speeding everything up, right? So just to think about energetically, things start racing because we're now, we're now in danger. And so everything becomes about reaction as opposed to response. And so then the other end, this is my fancy graph where I have hyper arousal. Up here, this zone in the middle of regulation, and down here is hypo arousal, which is what we call hopelessness, feeling powerlessness. We collapse, we dissociate, we go into freeze, we want to just get under the blanket and do nothing, right? That's that limbic brain going, Oh, the best strategy here is to play dad so the animal doesn't want to eat us. And then what we're supposed to do if we're quote, unquote healthy, which I think, you know, it's just part of the design flaw of our limbic brains, is that we really don't go back into that regulated zone and stay there, but we're supposed to, right, we're supposed to ideally have a threat respond with, like punching it, then we're supposed to come back down into regulation and be calm and open and be able to focus. That's when we're joyful, spontaneously creative, right? And then there's supposed to be another threat, and then maybe this time, we go down into hype or arousal, and we play dead, we stop breathing, we sort of check out. But then danger is over, and then we come back into regulation. And so as dynamic brains, as dynamic beings, we're supposed to be moving through these zones, but really living in that zone of regulation, and your comment is, like, totally accurate and understandable, which is like, wow, but we go into these heightened emotional states and we stay there. What is that about? And how do we get out of that? And that is that brain getting stuck in those maladaptive patterns. But the important thing to remember is that the emotions while they're manifesting. It's true. It's happening. The thing we need to tell ourselves is, okay, that's not who we are, that's not our intelligence, that's us being stuck in a pattern. Because what happens then is we get a feedback loop. And this is the feedback loop that happens between our minds, what we tell ourselves, and the emotions, which is really that limbic brain firing and going, you're in danger. So I'm going to react with a. Anger, jealousy, mental like, emotional fixation on the problem, or I'm going to put you in a state of thinking you're powerless. I'm going to try to get you to check out, numb out, and to just remember that's that limbic brain misperceiving the here and now. That's not who I am fundamentally. And so then, if we can remember that, then our mind part becomes a little bit more empowered, because the feedback loop that happens is that we'll go into hyper arousal, right? And we'll be in that state of like anxiety, right or irritability, then it perfumes our thinking, right? And so then our thinking is off to the races, looking for the danger in the present moment, right? And so we're mentally ruminating on that friend or their kid or work situation, and then it becomes a feedback loop, and the thoughts keep the emotions going, and the emotions keep the thoughts going. So really, when we talk about interventions, what's going to help? We want to remember that we're caught in a loop, and to whatever we can do to help interrupt that and to remember this. These emotions, even though they're arising in me in the present, they're not necessarily truth. They're real in a sense they're happening, but they're not necessarily real in the sense that they're an appropriate response for the here and now and to remember. They're not necessarily meaningful, right? Which is the key thing is that we all kind of assume that our emotions are truth tellers, and it's part of our design. It's part of the design of our survival brain, right? I mean, the most important thing for an organism is to stay alive, right? So we have to appreciate why this part of our brains is so powerful and has so much control, but if we can remember, okay, but it also just be that doing that thing habitually so we can help separate out like, Okay, this isn't truly me, because, as you've talked about with so many of your guests, right, that feeling of shame, that feeling of what's wrong with me, right? As if the me is that dysfunctional brain habits, right? So if we can start to separate them out, then maybe we can have a little bit more resourcing around like, No, I think I'm a good person, but I think my brain is doing something funky here, right? And to let yourself think of it as like an organ problem, as opposed to a me problem, who I am, fundamentally.

Katy Weber 37:54
A lot of this reminds me of the book burnout by Emily and Amelia Nicosia. Have you read that? You know they talk about completing a stress response cycle, and you know, needing to, you know, the way in which, back in the day, when it was a physical danger that we might be, you know, you're hunt out hunting for mammoths or something, you know, and if you have that fight or flight response, there's ways in which your environment and what you see around you reminds you that you are then safe when, when that the danger passes, but when it comes to complex trauma and when it comes to those internalized triggers, we aren't taking that time to complete that cycle in so, yeah, such a good book. Do you work with men and women, and do you do right with the neurofeedback? Do you notice differences in terms of, you know, because as women, it does feel like there's so many overlapping variables that are unique to the female experience. Or for those of us who are socialized as girls like do you notice differences in terms of the more you know, physically hyperactive, novelty seeking brain versus the internalized I have a million songs going in my head right now, over, overthinking, anxious brain, which I think, you know, the vast majority of women tend to fall in that category.

Natalie Baker 39:13
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, with women. I mean, there's two things. One is that that the calming down of that, you know, like emotional spinning, mental spinning. I liken it to like a snow globe, right? When you shake up a snow globe, and then you try to look at the image, you can't see anything. It's very overwhelming. And that feeling of confusion and anxiety, right? And then if you stop shaking it, and the, you know, the snowflakes settle, right? It's like, oh my god, I can see clearly. And that's really translates into, oh my god, I could just do, I could do one thing that I could do the next thing, and I could just be so two things. One is just recognizing that whatever. Source of the anxiety. And, of course, we can't, there's no such thing as it's just one thing, one source, right? Like you say, there's like, little traumas, or even, unfortunately, big traumas, right, that can happen throughout life. And growing up as a girl, you know, there's all sorts of messaging that produces a stress response, and so we can just, we should just assume that that's part of what's in the mix, but being able to sort of have the experience of not being anxious and realizing, wow, I didn't really do anything to make that happen, right? So with the neurofeedback, you're not trying to make your brain less anxious. It just does that because it's starting to function better. And so the the AHA and the relief and the reestablishing of one's good sense of self that can happen when, when there's that feeling of calmness and then that clarity, that mental clarity that comes of like, wow, I can just do things like, it's not me again, going back to that very understandable self judgment, you know That has happened. I had a woman who backing into the ADHD diagnosis thing. So I had a woman who did neurofeedback. She was a former therapy client of mine, and she had had a situation where two family members, her sister and her mom, died in the same year, and she was really grieving, and it was bringing up all sorts of emotions. And so she said to me, Natalie, what do you think about me doing the neurofeedback? And I said, that would be a great thing to help you process the grief, because, you know, we can resolve and work through and heal when we're in that regulated state, but when we're caught in the dysregulation, right? That's what interrupts the grieving process. So I said to her, absolutely, let's get you doing the neurofeedback. And so to her credit, she did the HOME program, and she was training herself every single day. And about a month and a half in, she called me and she was like, Natalie, I have to tell you, she's like, I realize that the grief was part of it, but I can now organize myself, and I can get things done, and I can now drive the highway without taking a Xanax beforehand. And she's like, I realized I have ADHD and so her brain, you know, functioning better, was the way she realized, wow, I thought that was just me and how I am in the world. And so that's a common thing that can happen when someone does the neurofeedback for more the emotional reasons is they realize, oh, actually, I think I was was ADHD, and not even realizing it, because all those things that I thought I just wasn't good at, right? The story,

Katy Weber 43:27
right? Well, and you know, a lot of the stuff I work on with my clients is that brain training, just in terms of CBT, and, you know, really challenging that negativity bias, but also acknowledging the reason why we have a negativity bias is because of the ADHD brain and the sort of, you know, see that novelty seeking, dopamine seeking, part of us that always is looking for the negative because it's so much more interesting. So it's like, how do we train ourselves to acknowledge that that's where we're going to go? But also then, like, be intentional about looking at the positives and, you know, and so it's like, that sort of CBT brain training. But I'm like, here's this machine that's doing it for me in 33 minutes. It's amazing. So what is your role, then, as a psychotherapist? Is it just, does the neurofeedback just work on its own and there's no follow up? Or is there any kind of in session, behavioral work that goes alongside with it.

Natalie Baker 44:23
Yeah, and that's, you know, it's interesting, because the the the kind of moving into the ADHD support realm really wasn't my original intention. It was really to help my clients who have PTSD and anxiety and stress addictions too, I imagine, right? It would. And addictions, yes, and addictions, which, you know, I mean, we see again, we see a lot of ADHD and addictions together, right? Because the person's trying to regulate themselves in like, whatever way they can. Yeah, so it's interesting, because with our ADHD Neurofeedback clients, they often do our home program, and we're providing for them the brain training piece, and then I often will connect them. If they need the support of an ADHD coach, I'll connect them with someone so they can get that. You know, as you said, cognitive behavioral training on like, what? How do we have to set ourselves up for success so now that our brain is in the place where it can really learn, what are the skills we need to learn here and to reinforce that? So we have many parts working well together in my psychotherapy practice, if somebody has ADHD, like I have a couple that I work with where the wife is ADHD, and of course, can be a source of a lot of frustration in their relationship, and Then for them, it's a lot of psycho education around like, how do we respectfully include that ADHD brain in part of the dynamics of that couple, and recognizing that that maybe we could think of that as a third party that's present and part of the relationship, but, but not the wife, right? Or you know who she is as a woman, right? And so that may include some emotional work, communication training. I mean, the really cool thing about neurofeedback and couples and Neurofeedback and families is I watch over and over again, families being able to shift from reactive to communication to responsive communication, right? And I think we all know what reactive communication is, right when we're just like you know that part of the brain is just being snippy or being anxious or reacting to the problem, not thinking things through, and so there's emotional communication, and it's like a ping pong game. And what happens when multiple family members do the neurofeedback? And I see this a lot. You know, when we have a family that reaches out for training for their child, I always encourage at least one parent to do the neurofeedback alongside the child, because nervous systems are connected, right? And we see that it's a whole system, and there's there's usually dysregulation in the family system, and the shifting that can very organically happen to better communication, where now that that brain is able to put on its brakes, right, and if set someone says something that's insulting, right? That we could pause and be thoughtful before we respond. And so there's this very organic change that can happen in how families communicate when they're doing the neurofeedback, which they didn't even intend, right? They're they're like, get rid of my ADHD brain, and not thinking about, like, oh yeah, our communication and our family could also improve. And to witness that happen very organically is just such a nice thing. Yeah,

Katy Weber 48:32
right, well, and I just, I love how you said it's an organ problem, not a me problem, because I think that applies to the family unit as well, right? Like when the psycho education leads to this idea that this is not about willpower. This isn't one of those things. And especially, you know, we see this with addictions too, right? If you loved me, you would stop, right? So therefore you don't love me. And then internally, the person who is the addict then thinks, Well, I must not love them, because otherwise I would stop, right? And so you have that feeling of like, you know, the person with the problem is the one who feels like, you know, it's up to me to solve this, as opposed to the way we can reframe ADHD. And, you know, in a lot of these instances is that, like, we're all working together to acknowledge that there is a, you know, this, an organ problem, a brain disorder, and that's where I feel like, you know, dismissing ADHD as a disorder and only talking about a superpower really does a disservice to this idea that there is, can be a real problem, that there's, you know, it takes all of us to address that it's not just up to the person to figure out what their superpower is, and if they can't, then it's their problem again, because that's, you know, why so many of us end up with diagnoses of depression and anxiety so long before the ADHD, because we thought it was a this me problem that I just need to, you know, I need more willpower. I need to get my shit together, whatever it is. You know, one of the things with the family unit too, and I think medication. Does this, but it sounds like Neurofeedback can do this, especially in children and adolescents. So you know, one of the things they talk about in the in the documentary, and one of the reasons why my husband and I decided to start trying medication with my daughter when she was in high school, was the idea that it provides the scaffolding, but it also starts to develop neural pathways in terms of self esteem and self confidence and self trust, so that when the medication is taken away, there's this very, very pivotal time in your life as your prefrontal cortex is forming that you feel like you are able to do things, whereas without medication, because, you know, a lot of parents say, I don't want to give my child medication because they're at this pivotal stage where their prefrontal cortex is forward, like, all the same reasons. And you know, so I found it very compelling to think about like, well, how will this medication in the short term affect their cognitive functioning and their ability to trust themselves, right, so that they might not need it long term. And so I think there is that other side of that, you know, getting back to what we were talking about with the scaffolding. But it sounds like neurofeedback is a, you know, doing the same thing, right, developing these pathways, absolutely.

Natalie Baker 51:13
Yeah. And, and, you know, children, they respond more quickly to Neurofeedback than in general, adults do because two reasons, they have all these unassigned neurons, right? Their brains are still developing, so you have, just like basic, you could say, raw material that is there ready to be utilized to create those new neural pathways. And then the other thing, which is a big thing, is their minds haven't formed the who I am as solidly as when we're adults. And so as their brains are, re regulating. As they're calmer, the more emotion become more emotionally kind of regulated as they can focus better, right? And just have, you know, spontaneous like ease, right there, there, who am I question, can easily, kind of then be folded into these new feelings and behaviors so they're not going to be so likely to re arouse a stress response, because their self talk hasn't solidified so much into who I am, right? As adults we were like our self talk can become an obstacle to the neurofeedback training, because we can re arouse a stress response through what we say to ourselves throughout the day. And so with kids, you know, their brains re regulate and and their sense of self just goes along with that. And so those are the two variables that I think contribute the most to why children respond more quickly and it's more stable their training. But the other thing is, you know, just to reinforce, you know, girls really with ADHD, you know, their risk for, you know, early pregnancy, making less money as young adults, eating disorders. Yeah, the list is long, suicidal ideation, you know? I mean, it's hiring girls, so anything we can do to help support their brains functioning so their sense of self conform to be like, I'm confident and capable, I'm worthwhile, I'm valuable. I can be out there in the world, and that's, you know, just so important, as you said, to have that reference point and whatever tools we use. And, you know, I mean, the great thing is that families can do Neurofeedback when their children are are on medication. There's, there's no, no problem with that. And so then you can have two supports that are there. It's not an either or situation. And then what the other thing that happens that's really cool is, and I witnessed this just over and over again, is that as that brain re regulates through the neurofeedback, the line of communication becomes clearer, and our conscious selves can receive the information more easily about what else that brain is asking for. So it's like that snow globe, right? When those when those snowflakes have settled, we can see more clearly, right? And so what happens is the other supports can more easily come in, and so people will just spontaneously say things like, Natalie, you know, I realize now I need more physical exercise, and they can actually now start to execute on that. Or another big one is a couple months into neurofeedback, Okay, it's time to look at our diet. It sucks, but we're in the cognitive and emotional space where we can take on that new challenge of if we're like addicted to sugar right to start to wean ourselves off of that. So it's like we add one support, and then the brain starts going, hey, there are other things I need to function at my best. Do you mind looking at this? Could you get rid of that friendship? Because it just dysregulates me. And so this is the other thing, is that when your nervous system re regulates, and we're all interconnected. All of our nervous systems are interconnected. We start to feel other people's nervous systems more clearly. And so there's this healthy sense of separateness. And so we're like, Whoa, that person walks in the room, and it's like their dysregulation now is in Technicolor,

Unknown Speaker 56:12
and we're like, whoa, but our nervous systems

Natalie Baker 56:14
don't want to join that nervous system there. It's like, you can either come to my space, but I'm not going into that space. And so now we have an ability to feel relationships differently and know which ones can support us and how long we can stay with them before we get dysregulated, and then it's like, oh, okay, time to go. I'm starting to get up into that anxious space with you, and so it's it's also really great for our intimate relationships, because we'll set each other off not not meaning to, and then we're All vibrating on the wrong kind of frequency. So all these things snowball in a good way. Yeah,

Katy Weber 57:07
I love the snow globe analogy, too. I feel like that even just thinking about a snow globe is so regulated, right as as it starts to settle, it reminds me of those, you know, those oil and water tipping things where you would watch the oil sort of settle, like, oh, I need to get one of those. That'd be really great. Anyway. Natalie, I have like, 50 more questions I need, I need, like, three hours with you at some point, but I'm gonna start trying to wrap this up, because it's so fascinating, and I want people to hear this episode. And I know if it's longer than an hour, they probably won't. So now you had mentioned one of your clients, like was doing this every day. What does it typically entail? And then also, is this covered by insurance, typically? Is this how much? What does this cost somebody, if they what are they looking at in terms of doing neurofeedback. Yeah,

Natalie Baker 58:01
that's great, really practical. So it's, you know, you're teaching the brain to function differently. So it's like learning a language. If you do it more frequently in the beginning, you learn faster. And so the system I use is non invasive, and so there's no danger in using it daily. And so what I always say to people is, come up with a plan of consistency, like pair it with something that you do every day. If you sit down at your desk and you work on your computer for, you know, 45 minutes, then do your Neurofeedback then. So I'm very practical about that. But people, some people who come into the office, they do it once a week, and they see great results. It just takes longer to show but typically when people do the HOME program, I recommend two to three times a week, every other day. And if they're really kind of eager, I say do every day for your first month with kids training with ADHD, typically, three months of sessions is a really good foundation. Two to three times a week for adults, if they have like Complex PTSD, I would say it's probably going to be more like four to four months as a good foundation, four to five months, and depending on what people have, is lifestyle, as well as if they have other cofactors, like anxiety or trauma, you know, whether they're they're doing therapy, all those things are going to factor into their training results, Because also, every brain is unique, and that's, you know, why we see people having such varied response to medications, is because we have to just remember that it's frustrating and it's also beautiful, that we're all unique brains, and so does insurance cover it for in office session? Reasons. Sometimes it does, for the most part, it's considered experimental, although that's really changing. And in the 12 years, it's changed a lot. So I don't want to say no, I would say like, you just need to check with your insurance and then the home training. And part of what I like is that it's a much lower price point. So that's like around between like 507 100 a month to do it, and that's for the whole family. So per session, it's it's very inexpensive, but that typically is not covered by insurance the home training.

Katy Weber 1:00:37
And now, when you talk about the three months, is that something you return to every couple of years for, like, fine tuning, or is that usually, you know, is that usually enough to get your brain trained?

Speaker 1 1:00:50
Yeah, well, so for kids with ADHD, I find, oh,

Katy Weber 1:00:56
sorry to interrupt. That was my, my other question too, is there a minimum age for kids?

Natalie Baker 1:01:00
No, there's no minimum age because it's non invasive. At least the system that I use, if you do protocol neurofeedback, I'm sure they have maybe different predefined reasons why you train and when you train. But the system I use, there's no age you have to you start at, you know. So for kids brains that three months is usually pretty good for a good foundation and pretty stable, and then people may do tune ups when there's big stressors. So if kids have like they're going into regents exams or something like that, parents may see wobbling and going back to kind of old patterns, and they may do some tune up sessions. And then, for adults, it varies. And you can really think about this in two ways. You can think about it as symptom relief, or you can think about it as optimization of brain performance, and depending on how stressful your lifestyle and how like fine tuned you want your emotional regulation to be, or your ability to focus. You know, some people end up buying a system because they're like, We want this for everybody. We love it in the same way some people decide they're going to buy home gym equipment, right? Because that's a high priority of theirs. So really, to think about this is it's helping every brain function at its best, and then it's really personal in terms of what your goals are. Wow.

Katy Weber 1:02:31
Well, super fascinating. Thank you so much for spending this time with me. Just keep saying fascinating over the over and over, a really interesting approach to ways in which we can think of our brain, right when it comes to ADHD and this fascinating four letters and how it affects us and at various stages in our life. So amazing work you're doing. So your website, you have neurofeedback training.com is the website that'll be in the show notes, of course. Is there any is there a better way to reach out to you? If people want to follow up with you, we have

Natalie Baker 1:03:12
a national home program, and so people can reach out to me over the website. My email is Natalie at neurofeedback training com, but they can find that on the website too. So absolutely reach out. I'm happy to have a short consult with people to just answer any questions.

Katy Weber 1:03:30
Yeah, I'll make sure to put your YouTube channel in the in the show notes too, because you have some really great instructional videos just with some background on on Neurofeedback in general. So Well, thank you again. Natalie, this has been really, really amazing, really enlightening. Yeah,

Natalie Baker 1:03:45
thank you. Thank you. It's been a pleasure.

Katy Weber 1:03:53
There you have it. Thank you for listening, and I really hope you enjoyed this episode of the women and ADHD podcast. If you'd like to find out more about me and my coaching programs, head over to women and adhd.com if you're a woman who was diagnosed with ADHD and you'd like to apply to be a guest on this podcast, visit women and adhd.com/podcast guest, and you can find that link in the episode show notes. Also, you know, we ADHD ers crave feedback, and I would really appreciate hearing from you the listener, please take a moment to leave me a review on Apple podcasts or audible. And if that feels like too much, and I totally get it, please just take a few seconds right now to give me a five star rating or share this episode on your own social media to help reach more women who maybe have yet to discover and lean into this gift of neurodivergency, and they may be struggling and they don't even know why. I'll see you next time when I interview another amazing woman who discovered she's not lazy or crazy or broken, but she has ADHD, and she's now on the path to understanding her neurodivergent mind and finally, using this gift to her advantage. Take care till then you.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai