Jackie Schuld: Art therapy for late-diagnosed ADHD & autism

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Episode 189 with Jackie Schuld.

“We need more time for things to work through our brains. Art helps with that and gives an outlet for all the intense emotions and thoughts we have.”

Jackie is an expressive arts therapist who runs a private practice specializing in late-identified Autism & ADHD. As a late-identified autistic and ADHDer herself, she loves to connect with her clients through writing, art, and conversation. She also writes and illustrates visual books, including “What is Autism,” “Grief is a Mess” and many more.

Jackie and I talk about the road to identifying as an autistic and ADHD adult, and some of the limitations to the diagnosis process. We also discuss the difficulties that many neurodivergent adults, especially women, have had with therapy in the past and some of the unique needs that neurodivergent clients bring to a therapeutic relationship.

We also talk about how and why art therapy — including writing, drawing, music, and more — can be such a valuable tool for expression and self-exploration, especially for neurodivergent clients. 

Website: jackieschuld.com

Medium: @jackieschuld

Links & Resources:

Adult Autism Resources

What is Autism by Jackie Schuld

Grief is a Mess by Jackie Schuld

Unmasking Autism by Devon Price

The Exvangelicals: Loving, Living, and Leaving the White Evangelical Church by Sarah McCammon 

Jackie Schuld 0:00
My gosh, this is so confusing, like, what is what? And how do others see this? And how confusing it is to know what is autism? What is ADHD? And what does it look like when someone has both? And just those kinds of questions, I was really curious to know what other people thought of, especially since the scientific literature is not there yet you weren't even allowed to be diagnosed with both until 2013. So that means you couldn't even have studies where you're diagnosed with both before that.

Katy Weber 0:40
Hello, and welcome to the women and ADHD podcast. I'm your host, Katy Weber. I was diagnosed with ADHD at the age of 45. And it completely turned my world upside down. I've been looking back at so much of my life, school, jobs, my relationships, all of it with this new lens. And it has been nothing short of overwhelming. I quickly discovered I was not the only woman to have this experience. And now I interview other women who liked me discovered in adulthood, they have ADHD, and are finally feeling like they understand who they are and how to best lean into their strengths, both professionally and personally. Hello, and welcome back. Before we begin, I would love to share with you this review from a listener named curly sue in ATL, from the Apple podcast platform. It's entitled, so helpful, I have picked up some really valuable gems from this show, both validation and practical tools that have really made a difference for my productivity and self concept. Thanks for putting this together. Oh, well, thank you for putting together this review. Currently, Sue, I'm so glad to hear these conversations have made such a difference. And I love to get this kind of encouraging feedback. So thanks again. And if you're a listener of this podcast, and you found these interviews to be helpful, the best way to pay it forward is to leave a review so that other women like you can find this podcast and these conversations and know that they're not alone. And they're not simply lazy or depressed or broken, but they have ADHD. So please take a moment to head to Apple podcasts or audible or you can now leave feedback on individual episodes on Spotify. And if leaving a review feels like too much right now, you can also just quickly hit those five stars. In fact, why don't you just pause right now and go do it. I promise we will wait for you. Okey dokey. Here we are at episode 189 in which I interviewed Jackie sholde. Jackie is an expressive arts therapist who runs a private practice specializing in late identified autism and ADHD as a lead identified autistic and ADHD or herself she loves to connect with her clients through writing, art and conversation. She's also written and illustrated several visual books, including life as a late identified autistic grief is a mess and many more and you can find the link to those in the show notes. Jackie and I talked about the road to identifying as an autistic and ADHD adult and some of the limitations to the official diagnosis process. We also discussed the difficulties that many neurodivergent adults especially women have had with therapy in the past and discuss some of the unique needs that neurodivergent clients tend to bring to a therapeutic relationship. We'll talk about how and why art therapy which includes writing, drawing music, so many different forms can be such a valuable tool for expression and self exploration, especially for neurodivergent clients. Okay, before we begin, I also just want to give a quick reminder, I am a big fan of Jackie's writing, and I was really excited to interview her and as often happens with me when I'm really excited, I start to ramble and I go off in all directions. So during this conversation, I share some of my unsubstantiated theories and opinions about autism and ADHD as I often do with so please be reminded that I am not a medical professional, make sure to always consult with a qualified health care professional whenever it comes to your mental health. Okay, just wanted to get that out of the way. And I hope you enjoy this interview as much as I did. Here is my conversation with

Unknown Speaker 4:11
Jackie. Hi, Jackie.

Katy Weber 4:15
Thank you for joining me. I'm very, very excited. I feel like I know you already because I discovered you I think it was I was trying to remember how I found you. I think a client recommended one of your medium pieces. And then I subscribed and have been reading your pieces for a while now and just feel very, very seen by your writing and really appreciate what you're putting out there into the world. And yeah, I just have a lot of questions for you. But let's start out with your adult diagnosis. I actually don't know were you diagnosed at the same time ADHD and autism or was it a was it a one two punch?

Unknown Speaker 4:52
Yes.

Katy Weber 4:53
Okay, so what exactly was going on in your life and the moment that really, you started to look into it and but to introduce and seek out the diagnosis. Well,

Jackie Schuld 5:02
prior to my diagnosis, I self identified as autistic. And I really only went for a diagnosis because I was considering returning to do a PhD, and wanted some accommodations and things like that. And it was when I got my diagnosis for autism that they also mentioned ADHD. So that was really the one I didn't see coming. I was like, Oh, okay.

Katy Weber 5:31
And what about you? What was it that made you self diagnose? You know, what was it about yourself that you started thinking and identifying as autistic?

Jackie Schuld 5:39
Originally, it was an art therapist I was working with who suggested I might be autistic. And I'm a therapist myself. And so what we're taught in grad school about autism is very limited. And so I was like, There's no way there's no way I'm autistic. Thank you now. And, you know, she still encouraged me to do some reading. So I did. And then I really, once I got to read things written by women, and that was more about the internal experience, then I really started to identify with it and was like, oh, and kind of went down the deep rabbit hole. Most late identified, autistics do have like, what does this mean? And through that was confident, completely confident I was autistic, and was comfortable, continuing, self identified, in fact, I kind of saw it as a badge of pride. Kind of like, I don't find the diagnosis system in the States, valid for autism, because it's so flawed. And so it was kind of my way of being like, I don't, I'm not gonna use you system. And then I ended up deciding to pursue it again, as I mentioned, because I wanted some accommodations.

Katy Weber 7:06
Yeah, I wish I had that clarity. Because I feel like, I feel like I was dying. You know, I was diagnosed with ADHD. And it's only through interviewing and talking to women and just doing my own research and really like thinking about what are we talking about here? Especially because the, you know, when we would start talking about sensory issues, and I remember I had this video series on Instagram, where I would talk about like, only wanting certain spoons, and you know, only having certain mugs and overhead lighting and like anything that involves sensory, I would always get that response, which is you're not talking about ADHD, you're talking about autism? And I would be like, Okay, well, wait, what, what's, what is this overlap? You know, some people say there's a huge overlap, and and I'm like, is there an overlap? Or is there are we actually talking about autism? And so like, I went down this rabbit hole journey of like, do I self identify, and have read so many books? And I still, I don't know, I feel like there's still so much like, impostor syndrome that I'm experiencing a lot, right. And so part of me feels like I would really benefit from the official diagnosis. But also, I'm like, I think my ADHD is just getting in the way of actually following through on it. Right, you know, and it's the same with my daughter to like my 17 year old, like, I pretty much have identified her as autistic as well. And we have a lot of conversations about like our experience, and she actually doesn't care. She's sort of like, maybe I am maybe I'm not like for her. She's like, she's, you know, she embraces the neurodivergent umbrella and identity, and she really doesn't, it doesn't bother her as much as it bothers me where I'm like, I need to know, yes or no. So I'm feel like very befuddled. And also not only that, but like I you know, I don't know if it was in. If it was in Devon prices book, or if it was like a random tweet, I saw ones but there was some something either, that really a kernel that stayed with me, which was like, if you are doing a lot of research, you know, people who aren't autistic don't tend to do a lot of research about whether they are autistic. And that's always stayed with me, but I'm also sort of like, but I don't know, like, or like you just said you do, right. And I'm like, How do I? How How did you know?

Jackie Schuld 9:20
I mean, to be fair, I didn't know right away I that was after months of deep diving. And I also write a lot and my writing helps me process and think deeply on the information I'm consuming. So there was that as well.

Katy Weber 9:38
I know right? It really depends on what day you catch me whether I'm like, really, you know where I am on my scale of absolutely positive and, yeah, there's no I don't know, what are we even talking about here? You know that I get it, you know, go on this existential spiral. But, yeah, I'm curious with you looking back at your own experience as a therapist Uh, you know, one of the things that you write about a lot is sort of how neurotypical or not are realistic therapists just are getting it wrong when it comes to therapy with, you know, having autistic clients and, uh, you, as an autistic client would really love to find, right, the, you know, that piece where you're like, I wish I could find me, but obviously, that's unethical. But like, I'm curious looking back at this journey, um, your your late diagnosis and looking at therapy, just as a whole. Basically, I'm thinking like, I feel like I talk a lot with clients about how therapy, you know, there's a lot of like, baggage or resistance to therapy from neuro divergence, women, especially because a lot of us have been misdiagnosed with, with depression or anxiety. And so, you know, we talk a lot about why therapy feels like it's not helpful, but I feel like it's much harder to articulate what it is that wasn't helpful, right. And so I'm curious if you have been able to articulate for yourself like, where therapists tend to go wrong when it comes to not only autistic adults, but also like late diagnosed autistic adults, because I feel like there's a very specific category.

Unknown Speaker 11:20
Yes,

Jackie Schuld 11:21
there's a couple of answers kind of nestled in there. It's like the thing about like, going wrong. First of all, I don't think most therapists are equipped to identify that a client is neurodiverse. So that's obviously issue from start. But if we put that aside and say, okay, they are able to know someone is neurodiverse, there's still that, okay, what do you do with that? And where do you go. And so in either case, someone who either isn't educated on, you know, doesn't really under either doesn't have the education or the lived experience, or both. I think what they're doing is using, you know, the best skills they have as a therapist. And unfortunately, those skills are designed for the general population. And sorry, this, like my long winded explanation, what I'm trying to get at is that a lot of therapeutic data is based on Okay, let's look at your thoughts. Let's examine your life, like your trauma, let's like dive into all of that, and that is good and has its place. But for an autistic, what we really need to do is see like, the structure of their life, like their life, it and what I mean by that is, the impact of helpful a person's day is is going to have far more ramifications for an autistic than anyone else

Katy Weber 13:00
was gonna say, this is a huge ask too, because I'm like, I don't have the answer to this, right. Like, I feel like it's a really, really difficult thing to articulate

Jackie Schuld 13:09
well, and I don't want to invalidate that many autistics have trauma and trauma therapy has its place. And so it is, you know, examining our beliefs. But really, I see autism as an activated nervous system, and that you're constantly on alert you're in, you're constantly taking in more information, you're constantly having more thoughts. And so we need to work within that reality. And that means, one that a lot of the other tools aren't going to work like, hey, stop and examine each belief, see if it's true. That is just not possible with the sheer volume of thoughts going through most Autistics minds. And furthermore, we really have to look at how Autistics can honor their energy cycles, essentially, that no matter what I do in therapy, I'm still going to get tired from socializing. I'm still going to get tired from the stinking leaf blowers outside, it's summer right now. They're driving me nuts. But there's this idea in therapy of like fixing yourself, and, like, fix your mind. And a neurodivergent perspective is okay, you're not actually fixing what's going on in your head. Instead, you're trying to shift things in your environment and in your daily life and in your structure, to honor how you naturally function. That's what I was trying to say. Yes,

Katy Weber 14:40
it is. Absolutely. And I think it's one of those things that I've had a really hard time articulating for myself. All I can come up with, it's like this is about mindset and reframing and self concept and a lot of these vague terms that really if you don't know what I'm talking about, have no frame of reference. So I think you articulated it very well with She's like, it doesn't matter how many tools I have in my toolbox if I can't access them. Now what? Why do it? How do I stop feeling terrible about myself? Right? And I think that's where it comes down to, like really like so much more of it as psychoeducation. And, and understanding your triggers and understanding, I call them like notes in the margin, about like, who you are from one moment to the next.

Jackie Schuld 15:27
Yes, and I, and I think maybe a concrete example of all this is that I myself went to therapy, starting in my 20s, being like, hey, like, something is not right. And I did, all the trauma work, I did all these other like, all the things, and I still didn't feel good. It felt like I was failing therapy. You know, like, I'm doing all the things. And so learning I was autistic. Really, one freed me from trying to constantly change and fix myself, and then to allowed me to see like, Oh, I'm not too sensitive and need to like, fix, you know, whatever is being triggered in me. Instead, like, No, I'm deeply connected, empathetic individual. And I need to honor that. And so for instance, a concrete example would be I reduce the amount of news ice consumer see. Because like that, that really drags on my energy. And that's like what you were saying about notes in the margin that's specific to me, like so it's been a process of learning, like, what pulls up my energy, what kinds of things can I eliminate? As well as how can I structure and more recovery time, like naps and stuff like that? And then how can I reduce demands on me? Right,

Katy Weber 16:48
which is, you know, ironic, given the mental health field, because the mental health field like medicine, and most clinician, their clinical fields are really terrible. Allowing you to do any of those things, as I'm discovering, you know, so I'm also like getting my master's right now in clinical mental health counseling. And so I have a lot of questions.

Jackie Schuld 17:07
Oh, my gosh.

Katy Weber 17:11
But I want to talk about art therapy, too, because I feel like it must have been really interesting to you to start out, you were diagnosed after you became an expressive arts therapist. And so now you'd be like, oh, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Like, I feel like arts therapy is so incredibly helpful and such a great tool for the neurodivergent. Brain. And, and I just wanted to explore that a little bit and hear from you. And what were some of those realizations you made when you were diagnosed as neurodivergent? Or identified as murdered? Or, you know, what I mean, you know, what were some of those those realizations you had about? Art therapy and just talk about, you know, what are some of those benefits that are specific to working with autistic clients?

Jackie Schuld 17:57
First and foremost, it helped me look at my own art process differently. Whereas many times I had difficulty or articulating and conveying the strength of what I was feeling. And art helped me to do that, that I could point at the picture and be like, it feels like that. Because a lot of times as Autistics we feel so much at once, looking back on my life that helped me to see why during difficult periods, I turned to art so frequently. And then in terms of being an art therapist, and how it works, helps neurodivergent clients, I think it's a very similar thing. And that there's just some things that are hard to get out. As well as we need way more processing time than most people. And this and when I say I should say, like neurodivergent. So this includes ADHD, we just need time for things to work their way through our brains. And art helps us with that, as well as gives us a place and an outlet for all the intense emotions and thoughts we have. So it's just so many levels. I mean, there's also other levels, like with beings come up in someone's art that they may not be aware of that I noticed as an art therapist, you know, there's so many things happening. And that like, I also like that, it's a tool you can continue to use between sessions. So most of my clients I meet with once a month, and I give them tailored activities to work on each week, we're not together. And so it's nice that they can really sit and have the time to explore the things we're talking about. And then we can get back together and look at their art and be like, Oh, do you think about this or Ooh, like, what about this? And yeah, I could go on a long time about art therapy. So I'll stop there. I'll pause for any questions.

Katy Weber 19:59
No, I like that and I really liked how you tied it not only to the expressiveness, right, like it just an alternative option for expression. And I think that that can be so helpful because I think, you know, one of the things that I've realized in just working with and interviewing so many women with ADHD, and is that we all diagnosed in adulthood, like we all had this question, which was like, What's wrong with me? Right? Like, we all moved through life saying, I'm different, what's wrong with me and that frustration, of, you know, our intentions are very different from our actions a lot of the time, and I think that that really like the depression, that is experience just like we have neuro divergent burnout, I feel like there is neuro divergent depression. And I feel like that kind of depression often comes from a frustration, which is like, why am I so wrong? Right? Why am I disappointing other people? What is wrong with me? And how can I be that person that I'm supposed to be?

Jackie Schuld 20:56
I would tie into their the role of hope, and that a lot of times, we reach a point of hopelessness. Like there's, I don't know how to get to where I want, kind of feeling. And I've been trying and trying and trying, like tied to what you're saying about the brokenness. And so hopelessness is directly tied to depression, suicidal ideation, like it's a really big factor that I myself have experienced at different times. And I hear from my clients, many times,

Katy Weber 21:27
right. And so I feel like just being able to have something nonverbal, you know, that you can feel like an, a pure connection with, I'm guessing is, is something that must be very, very important. Yes.

Jackie Schuld 21:45
And to be clear, expressive art therapy includes all art forms, which includes writing, it's, so a lot of times I'm giving my clients writing assignments, or I'm saying, imagine what this painting would say to you on this subject. And so that's also helping to make those connections in our brain. And, yeah, well, I won't get into say, it's just working on so many different levels, but helping us to externalize what's happening. And then also be able to like, talk about it with those that we need to talk about it with meaning, for instance, if you're having difficulty with a partner or friend, that you're then able to talk about those issues with them.

Katy Weber 22:29
Now, I'm also curious, how many people are late diagnosed autistic adults? Have you interviewed at this point? A

Jackie Schuld 22:36
lie. I think it might be over 100? Because I did, like I did. I did autism interviews, and then I did combined autism and ADHD interviews, and then I did autism mini me. Oh,

Katy Weber 22:46
okay. Awesome. All right. Well, I'm yeah, I'm curious. Because I know, for me, I kind of like, backed into this whole podcast where I was, I was diagnosed, and I really, really wanted to have conversations with people to understand myself better just like, you know, to verbally process. And so I built this podcast platform, so that I had a reason to reach out to people to interview them. Because I was like, nobody's gonna just want to talk to me without this platform. But it was very, uh, you know, I've often said on this podcast, where I'm like, It's purely selfish. And one of the things that always amazed me was, I feel like over the years of interviewing people, like, that's how I learned, right. And it's been really nice for me to think about this exchange, this one on one exchange as being so symbiotic for the interviewee who also gets to share their story and benefits from that. But then also, there's the listener, that benefits from hearing us talk about our shared lived experience. And it was just like, I didn't plan any of it. Like, I'd love to think I'd love to, you know, take credit for actually having thought this out. But it was really just like the most beautiful, you know, accident. And so I was just curious for you, when you decided you were gonna start interviewing late diagnosed adults, like, what were you looking for? And what did you find? Or what are you finding?

Unknown Speaker 24:08
To be clear, my

Jackie Schuld 24:09
interviews are very different than yours.

Unknown Speaker 24:11
But

Jackie Schuld 24:13
I send written questions to people, and then they get to write their answers on their own time. So it's not like it's not really a conversation, which, quite frankly, I did it that way. Because I didn't have the capacity to have more conversations. As a therapist. It takes a lot of energy, like mental emotional energy to show up at the level that I do for people. And I already limit the amount of clients I have to honor that. And so it was like, I don't have more energy for in person for live conversations. But I was still super curious. That's what drove me. I was like, hi, I want to know, like, if I'm the only one here or like, I just wanted to hear more experiences from late identified Autistics. And in that's why I started it. And same with like each iteration of the interview, like when I did the combined autism and ADHD, it was the same thing. Whereas like, gosh, this is so confusing, like, what is what? How do others see this? And I'm sure, yeah, we were kind of talking about this at the beginning of our conversation, just how confusing it is to know what is autism? What is h, ADHD? And what does it look like when someone has both? And just those kinds of questions, I was really curious to know what other people thought of, especially since the scientific literature is not there yet, you weren't even allowed to be diagnosed with both until 2013. So that means you couldn't even have studies where you're diagnosed with both before that. So there's not a lot of concrete things you can turn to. And so I was like, well, let's go for the experience. Right?

Katy Weber 26:07
Speaking of confusing, because, yeah, I feel like I'm constantly going in circles and coming back to this, like, what actually are we talking about? And it was interesting, because for me, autism is, like you said, autism is the brain and the nervous system, and ADHD, is the behaviors that result from a dysregulated nervous system, right? Are there like, they are kind of the outward behaviors. And so that's, I almost think about it in terms of, you know, the orchid and the dandelion, have you heard of that, you know, the two types of children, you have an orchid that takes a lot of care, and you know, and then you have a dandelion where you could basically just put them in any situation, and they thrive. And, and for me, I'm sort of like, that's kind of how I think of autism versus ADHD, where I think of 80. And I don't know if this is correct, this is just what I've decided, because it's easier for me, when I think about what is what and what's the overlap. And when people say there's such a huge overlap, and I'm like, is there or are we actually talking about autism? Right. And so what I've landed on, is this idea that like ADHD is what happens when you are in like environments that are chronically inhospitable to your type of thinking, your brain and your nervous system. And so we talk about ADHD as in terms of its deficits, and in terms of the, you know, disorder, and it's much more pathologized. And yet, so, you know, autism is sort of like the, you know, the homebase, or, you know, the, and I have no idea if that's correct, but that's sort of how I've decided to think about it.

Jackie Schuld 27:40
Okay, so, in that framework, was the dandy line,

Katy Weber 27:44
the somebody who was ballistic or neurotypical. Oh, okay. I

Jackie Schuld 27:48
wasn't sure if the ADHD person was a dandy lion. I was like, what's happening?

Katy Weber 27:52
You know, as well, that's what's so I have a hard time. So then, you know, the question is, well, can you be ADHD and not be autistic? And then what does that look like? And does that come from trauma and not genetic? neurobiology? But then again, it comes to that question of like, well, how do you even judge trauma in terms of the your whole lifespan, right, especially as a woman, especially as a woman living in America, like, how do you even begin, and you know, those questions anyway? Actually, can

Jackie Schuld 28:19
I can I jump in here, though, because I do have some opinions. And I want to be clear, they're just opinion. Like you were saying for yourself, right? That, yes. I don't want to misrepresent something. It's like, these are the facts. It's more like we're all just trying to figure this neurodivergent world out. And the more theories and ideas, the better. And from the interviews to the amount of clients I've had to my personal experience, I see autism as a different neuro type, meaning the brain is literally firing in different ways and causing other pathways in the brain to fire at the same time. And this also causes an activated nervous system, which for me, when I'm exploring with someone, if they're autistic, we're looking at six main categories. And this is gonna tie in to the ADHD thing, I'm going somewhere, but so we're looking at you know, their mental characteristics or emotional characteristics, body sensory interests, and then how they socialize and all the ADHD. The typical symptoms listed in the DSM in the diagnostic manual, show up in the executive function area, so in the mental characteristics of autism, and so I think that all Autistics exhibit ADHD, quote symptoms to some degree, it's just if the intensity and frequency are strong enough to meet the diagnostic criteria, so But that's why also, you know, the literature, the scientific literature is saying that 70% of autistics are also ADHD, I think that's why there's such a strong overlap. But as for your point about, you know, just being solely ADHD and I like I hadn't thought about it from your sides, like what you were saying. So I'm gonna think on that more

Katy Weber 30:27
well, and to give us some context to like one of the things that I've been endlessly confused about being in the mental health counseling program and having this, you know, going through the curriculum right now, and seeing how nerve divergence is just not talked about at all, or it's tacked on at the very end. Or it's talked about in these sort of extreme stereotypes of what an autistic person looks like, or an ADHD child or they talk about it in very, like, vague, you know, situations where they lump it in with like criminals, you know, where they're like, you know, the criminals and deviance and people with ADHD,

Speaker 1 31:02
you're like, wait a minute. Yeah.

Katy Weber 31:05
But like, what are the things that I find fascinating is the fact that I we see autism and ADHD everywhere, in all of the case studies in all of the like, you know, things that were, you know, especially in talking about the DSM and talking about like, PTSD, right, and you'll will say, these comments very flippantly, where it's like, in the military, some soldiers come back from the exact same experience, and some of them have PTSD and some of them don't. So it's a neurobiology as to you know, it's up to neurobiology, if you have it, or you don't or maybe it's genetic, and I'm like, is that autism? Like? Is that what we're talking about? You know, and so I'm always thinking like, when people say, sometimes you do, sometimes you don't, and we're coming back to just who that person is, when we say who that person is, when they're more susceptible to trauma? Is that a form of autism in itself, right. And so I'm always looking at like, I just feel like I'm seeing it everywhere. And then I get back into my state of self doubt, where I'm like, am I? Or am I miss judging this and I'm totally confused. And I have no idea what I'm talking about. So you know, having been through the program, and now thinking about it in retrospect, I'm like, always, you know, it's, it's like you said, these are all theories. And I find it very validating whenever I talk to any clinician, psychologists, psychiatrists, anybody on this podcast, and they also have no idea, right? Like, like, I find it very validated, because I'm like, Okay, so there's not like some, you know, book that I need to still read. Like, it's really, there's so many question marks around this. But anyway.

Jackie Schuld 32:37
So I will say for myself, in terms of being able to identify autism, it is very clear. Okay. You know, what, like, I mentioned those six categories and looking at what kind of characteristics are sure and that's my word instead of symptoms, because I don't want to pathologize what kind of characteristics are showing up in each of those and how long they've been, like, have they been present since childhood. And as well as it's a very common thing for Autistics to fluctuate back and forth between hyper and hypo meaning, sometimes, the light might be too much, and you're like, Oh, I can't have any late. And that's a Hypo state where you're like, oh, too much. And then other times, you need light to feel alive and to feel happy in that moment, and that's a hyper state where you're craving something. And so that fluctuates. Anyways, the point being that, like, for me, there are very specific things I look for, because one of the main reasons people meet with me is to know if they're autistic or not. And so it's something I've worked pretty hard on terms of like, really understanding the breadth of characteristics and what we're looking for when trying to identify it.

Katy Weber 33:53
Yeah. No, I get that. You know, it's funny because I often, les other joke with, with not getting diagnosed with autism is the fact that I'm like, what if they say no, then what? Right? That's my big fear.

Jackie Schuld 34:07
I guess that's so true. I hear that all the time. Like, I think that's terrifying. Yeah. Like, what

Katy Weber 34:13
will I do? And because, you know, we talk about the diagnostic criteria is flawed. And it's also very old. And so there's this lived experience, there's the modern dialogue that's happening online, there's, you know, it's advancing so much faster than so many clinicians who are who were educated 30 years ago or whatever. Like, it's so really, it's such a crapshoot in terms of who you get and who you're talking to, and who's diagnosing you and so I'm sort of like, I the fear of being told I'm not is too great. And what do I do with that? Right where I'm like, I don't even know what to do with that. And then you know, but I also in terms of ADHD, I will often you know, I also admitted after starting this podcast that I was like, I started the podcast before I was even officially doing Notice with ADHD, because I was so excited. And you know, I always jump first and think later. And so I started the whole thing. And then in the back of my mind, I was like, What am I going to do? What am I going to do? If my doctor says I don't have it? And right? And then of course, you know, she was like, I came in with all my forms and everything. And she was like me, you had me at hello. So it wasn't a big deal. At the end, so part of me is sort of like, you know, what I talked to people about that doubt, right? That self doubt that lack of self trust, that that confusion, that lack of like really feeling in touch with your intuitive self, like, that's all part of ADHD. So if you're having all of that impostor syndrome, and that and that confusion, like that's a pretty good sign that you're on the right track. And so part of me feels like I should be telling myself the same thing, when it comes to autism, where I'm like, if I'm so afraid that somebody's going to say no, that I'm avoiding trying to even go after the diagnosis. That's pretty much means I'm on the right track. So I'm curious, you just said that a lot of your clients will say stuff like that. What's, how do you talk them through that? Yeah, well, I want

Jackie Schuld 36:11
someone to jump in on like another thing here, and that the criteria in the DSM five for autism is all based on external behaviors. So they're looking at like, what are you exhibiting? And when I meet with people I'm not looking at that I'm looking at are you having the interior experience of autism, regardless of how it manifests externally? And so it's not that I see the DSM five, as incorrect, like, it's just not sufficient. It's not all there is it's not going a level deeper. And that's why so many people get missed, because, you know, oh, are you exhibiting that like rigidity in that input, like rigidity is actually just a way of having routine. So that we have to make less choices. And things can be more clear, because there's so much going on in our minds. And we're taking in so much so like, once we start to see that we can see autism a little differently, that like rigidity is not what defines autism, that rigidity is actually a coping mechanism of what's happening in an autistic person's mind. So, I know that's a long caveat to what you were saying about self doubt. But I think one of my goals when I work with clients is that I want them to fully understand their autistic mind. I don't want the my goal isn't like yes, no, you're autistic goodbye. Like, I want them to know, like, Okay, and what does this mean for me? How does that because autism and ADHD are going to show up for each of us differently, as well as we're going to cope with it all differently. And so I want anyone who concludes with me to, to have that information and to understand themselves on that level, so that they can then sculpt their lives in a way that like honors that which is will automatically decrease what we were talking about with the depression or the anxiety or the other co occurring things we often get either misdiagnosed or diagnosed with.

Katy Weber 38:19
Yeah, no, I think that's really, that's really well said, thank you. I wanted to shift a little bit because you're, you've written quite How many books have you written? You've written quite a few, right?

Unknown Speaker 38:31
Yeah, five, five.

Katy Weber 38:33
And I'll put a link to your website and all of your amazing books. But what I was really struck by the picture books, especially around the picture books, in around your mom and her journey through chemotherapy, and then also your journey through grief and so beautiful and so wonderful. And were you diagnosed before or after your mom passed away? After after, right? So, you know, one of the things I saw was I and so one of the things I sort of have really, the one person in the world I wish I could talk to about my adult diagnosis is my mom because I felt like she was also very confused with me growing up, and I you know, she saw how much I struggled and how deeply hurting I was a lot of the time with, you know, with those questions. And so I was curious if you you had similar feelings of you know, do you look back at your family members and see neuro divergence? Do you see it in your mom? Is this is this a conversation you wish you could have had with her? I'm sorry, I

Jackie Schuld 39:41
struggled when there's like, questions and questions. I

Speaker 1 39:45
don't know how not to I'm so I'm such a kid nosy but I'm so nosy. I've like just pick one.

Jackie Schuld 39:51
This is another interesting thing about neuro divergence, right like, here I am struggling with multiple questions at once. And yet when I work with my clients, I also do the same thing, I end up asking multiple questions at once. Anyways, I think my lived experience with my family is so unique in that I grew up in a very religious home, I grew up at a Christian camp, that that my parents helped run. And that really shaped the expectations of who I should be as a human. And so

Speaker 2 40:28
I don't know that my mom

Jackie Schuld 40:35
would necessarily, except my neuro divergence, I don't know, like I She constantly was guiding me to like, give your problems to God, pray for help those kinds of things. And her that like her number one goal for me it was to have a relationship with Christ. So if autism in any way distracted from that, I don't know that she would accept it. Yeah. So I don't want to get too off topic here. But it's, ya know, I

Katy Weber 41:10
think it's fascinating because I also was raised in a very fundamental evangelical household and, you know, refer to myself as an expert. angelical. But you know, one of the things

Unknown Speaker 41:23
Oh, there's the book too. Sorry.

Unknown Speaker 41:26
Wait, what? Oh, your Wait, your book? No, no,

Jackie Schuld 41:28
there's a book called X angelical.

Unknown Speaker 41:30
That's so good. Oh, really?

Katy Weber 41:32
Oh, I haven't read that. I've been I've heard the term before, obviously. But yeah, it is very fascinating to me in terms of just some of the how dogma and neuro divergence intersect or don't. And, you know, my own sort of oppositional nature growing up, and just how both of my parents sort of dealt with being very religious as well. And but one of the things I will always credit not only my mother, and but my grandmother, were how curious and open minded they were. And so one of the things that I was always, you know, people, like my oldest brother is gay. And, you know, people were always like, how did your mother deal with that, because she was very accepting. And she was, you know, she, she'd never wanted to be rejecting any of her children. She was very loving and accepting of all of us, even when one by one, we all left the church, but like, we still had a relationship. And she was always very curious and always was sort of like, I don't understand why you think the way you do, but help me help me understand, right? And that, to me was so antithetical to what I learned about the church, I could never really understand how she could be both. And now looking back, I'm like, I feel like she probably was drawn to her she was the divergent one. They I don't know, I could never decide if she was or wasn't because she was also like, you know, a certain that Boomer generation where she was very organized and had a lot of routines around like domesticity, which I don't and you know, so there was part of me that I always thought of her as being like, very together. But now I look back. And I'm like, No, that was probably how she survived being a woman in this that era. But anyway, I don't even know if I had a question in there was there? I don't think so. No, probably not. I just was just, oh, you know, what I was looking at your books. And I was just thinking about this ode to your mother. And you know, and, and the experience of grief, too. I think grief is another one that is so isolating, especially considering it's universal. And all of us go through it, every single one of us loses a loved one. And yet it is was one of that grief, the loss of my mother was one of the most isolating experiences of my life. And I found that really fascinating, because I'm sort of like, is that a universal experience? Is that neurodivergent experience? I'm not sure. But I found it really hard to share, you know, and feel connected to literally anyone else in that universal experience. So I feel like you'd know what I'm talking about.

Unknown Speaker 44:02
I agree. Well,

Jackie Schuld 44:04
yes. And there were I mean, the book was born from, to be clear, the books called grief is a mess. It's about like how messy grief is and it was born from the experience of watching all my family members and friends respond to my mom's death differently, as well as like, their expectations of me and how I should be grieving. And it just kind of felt like let let me have space to just be whatever I am and feel however I'm feeling and think however I'm thinking and that it's all over the place. It is all over the place. And that's what I captured my book. It's like sometimes, some days were like happy and then other days were like, Oh my gosh, like it's just so so so sad. And I really just made the cartoons from that, of like honoring and looking back. That is one book then I'm like, wow, that is such an autistic thing to do. It turns up to be like, This doesn't make sense to me. Let me try to like, break it up into categories and like how it makes it and like, capture it all with art in these different ways. And so I have a kind of a lot of empathy for myself looking back making that book. I'm like, Oh, I see what you were doing there, Jackie? Yeah.

Katy Weber 45:23
Ah, gosh, right. You know, it's funny, because I love talking about the long processing experience, you know, especially when it comes to emotion. That was something that I also really related when you were talking about, like, the impetus for the book and how grieving looks very different. And so going back to that question of what's wrong with me, I remember feeling like there was a lot of expectation to cry, and I didn't right away, because I wasn't I hadn't processed it. It wasn't real to me in any way. And so there was this performative element at the funeral where I was sort of like, felt like, why is everyone crying? And I'm not, I'm the daughter of I'm supposed to, and feeling really, like there was something wrong with me, this was all before my diagnosis. And so, again, like I talk about this a lot with my clients when it comes to happiness on the other side of that spectrum, which is like happiness looks very different for different people, right? And I think that's, you know, what we're talking about with the book, like, there's no one way to experience happiness. Happiness doesn't necessarily mean you're smiling. It doesn't even mean that you are content or light. Sometimes happiness is a furrowed brow. Right? It's, it's a talk about Sisyphus a lot. Because I think about like, sometimes happiness is like, feeling really, like you're putting solving a puzzle, right? It's that fulfillment that comes from really digging in, and hey, you know, and I always would joke that, like, we're the ones at a party where everybody else is having small talk and dancing around. We're the ones like in the back of a couch having a deep covers. Because I like that brings me joy. I also like to dance, but I'd like you know, for the most part, I'm like, you know, let's cut the small talk and get right into the intensity of it. And so I'm like, That's happiness, right? So happiness is gonna look very different for a lot of people. And you know, you always joke like, I don't like to open gifts in front of other people. Because my response always betray. Yeah, right. But I think, you know, it's like, I never look happy enough, or I never look grateful enough. And so I'm so worried about how they will receive me and then I get too worried about it. Right. And so it's like, but I had never really thought about how that connected to that, that length of time it takes to really just process intense emotions and how similar it was in terms of the grieving process. So interesting. Thank you.

Jackie Schuld 47:42
What you're saying like, it's the same with like, joyful things, even like sometimes people be like, Why aren't you more happy when like something good, really good happens. And sometimes I'm like, it just, I don't know. Couple hours later, it'll hit me and I'll be like, but like it just right. Yeah, take the time.

Katy Weber 48:01
So oh, man, I feel like I could just pick your brain for hours. So thank you for going on this like meandering journey with me. i That's the other thing. I always feel like I said, these questions ahead of time to people, I'd never stick with them. And I feel terrible.

Jackie Schuld 48:13
So what can I kind of tell you? I'll tell you a little secret. I didn't read them. Oh, good. I saw you sent them. And my intention? No, but I intentionally didn't read them. Because then I will become obsessive and try to prepare too much. And so it was like, No, don't look, check. Don't look, I because I want to be more spontaneous in the moment. I do still appreciate that you sent them for your guests that prefer that. But for myself, like, don't

Katy Weber 48:41
do it don't look, I love to hear that. Because I always for me, I feel guilty if somebody has prepared answers, and then we don't get to them. Because I feel like it's such wasted effort. But I am curious, you know, especially given how, you know, ADHD is such a deficit based name, and it's so stigmatized. There's so much stigma around ADHD right now, for myriad reasons. But uh, you know, the name is so problematic, whereas I don't feel like there's that same conversation around autism. And so I'm curious if you could rename ADHD to something else would you? Would you call it something else?

Jackie Schuld 49:23
No. I mean, not that I. It just would feel weird. It just feels weird to give it a name anyways. Yeah. At least for myself. My brain functioning is just part of who I am. It's almost like when people are like, Are you an artist and that feels like separating it from my identity. Where it's like, no, I just I do art. Like I just I am. So the, the same with like my neuro type ID. But I'm with you on that. There's a lot of negative things said both about ADHD and Ah, but I really see it as enhancing my life like, yes, there's a lot of challenges. But it also helps me like, see things differently and experience the world differently. And in a way that I'm really grateful for being granted. I do sometimes I'm like, what is it like inside other people's brains? Like I really do wish they could fit inside someone's brain who's allistic, or neurotypical? And just observe and be like, what is it like in here?

Katy Weber 50:29
I know, right? Yeah. That reminded me of identity, person, person first language around autism and ADHD. And I feel like in terms of identity first, like, I don't know why it would be without it. Right? So I can't even imagine not having it. And so it's it's everywhere in everything I do, and think and say it's everywhere. And so I can't even comprehend of who what part what part of me exists without it. And so I often don't understand how you could use person personally. I mean, I get it, and I get how helpful it could be for some people. And I don't feel like there's one or the other, that is the better way. I just like conceptually have a really, really hard time thinking about it. And so that's how I ended up, like you said, seeing the positive side of it, because I have no choice. Right? It's like seeing the positive side of anything. Yeah.

Jackie Schuld 51:24
For yourself, then, with ADHD, how do you choose to identify? Do you say like, you're an ADHD, or

Katy Weber 51:32
I don't really like I feel like I probably default to person first language, just because it's so awkward to say ADHD, or more like, from a grammatical point of view than I do necessarily. From like, an identity.

Jackie Schuld 51:46
I know, I got, I feel lucky to be like, autistic, it's easy. But ADHD, it's like, how do you how do you say that?

Katy Weber 51:53
I know, it's more awkward. Like I embrace identity first. But even though I, you know, I haven't really come up with one way of saying what, you know, one way or the other. Depression to depression. One is another one where I sort of feel like I am I no longer depressed now that I have ADHD is another question I have all the time, which is sort of like, No, I don't ask those questions like what's wrong with me anymore. And so I feel like, I'm probably not depressed. But I also spent a very long time using identity first language around depression, so that I could find joy, right? So that I could be like, Yes, I am a depressed person. But I also have moments of joy. And I'm also a good mother and a good partner and all of those things. So but I never thought of myself as getting rid of it. Right? I just thought of myself as living with it. And so, but I do feel like people who say I was misdiagnosed, and I could absolutely say without 100% That I don't have depression. And I was like, how, how are you able to say that, you know, like, I'm sort of, I don't know, if I'm just having a good run of it. And, you know, it sort of comes and goes and ebbs and flows, sort of like ADHD, sometimes I'm like, I'm on the ball. And I don't feel like I'm a hot mess. But you know, it doesn't mean I don't have it anymore. I don't feel like you can be cured of it.

Unknown Speaker 53:12
We could talk a while on this.

Katy Weber 53:17
But I see, you know, I see a lot of the merit for identity first language in a lot of diagnoses, or at least I like to contemplate it, you know, in a lot of those parallels with various other, quote unquote, disorders.

Unknown Speaker 53:33
Anyway, thank you, Jack. This

Katy Weber 53:34
is so wonderful. So Jackie shoulda.com, I'll have a link in your show, in the show notes to your website, and also to your wonderful medium blog, I guess, is it is there another name for that? It's just account. Yeah, I

Jackie Schuld 53:48
think that's the right. I mean, I call my writing or essays, but they're just my pontifications. They

Katy Weber 53:54
are really, really wonderful. And I'm so glad I found you. And just really, really appreciate the depth of thought that you put into a lot of these questions. And, you know, I never trust people who have their mind made up about literally anything. So I really like the fact that you are so curious and open to so many things and expresses so well through your writing. So thank you for putting that out there. Is there anywhere else where you want people to find you or look you up or if somebody wanted to work with you. I don't write

Jackie Schuld 54:31
my website. If someone wants to work with me, you can go to my website, I am currently full. But if you check in once a month I update if I have a spot open but I'd say that. The other thing is I do try to be more accessible through my writing. That's kind of my way of being like, hey, here's what I do not have unlimited time. But like for instance, with my book about autism, I was really trying to lay out like here's what I'm seeing. So yes But the easier way to interact with me is through the writing.

Katy Weber 55:03
Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you again. It's been a real real pleasure. Hopefully, our paths will cross again, someday. Yes.

Jackie Schuld 55:14
Thank you for having me.

Unknown Speaker 55:15
Thank you, Jackie.

Katy Weber 55:22
There you have it. Thank you for listening. And I really hope you enjoyed this episode of the women and ADHD podcast. If you'd like to find out more about me and my coaching programs, head over to women and adhd.com If you're a woman who was diagnosed with ADHD and you'd like to apply to be a guest on this podcast, visit women and adhd.com/podcast guest and you can find that link in the episode show notes. Also, you know, we ADHD ears crave feedback. And I would really appreciate hearing from you the listener, please take a moment to leave me a review on Apple podcasts or audible. And if that feels like too much, and I totally get it. Please just take a few seconds right now to give me a five star rating or share this episode on your own social media to help reach more women who maybe have yet to discover and lean into this gift of nerd of urgency, and they may be struggling and they don't even know why. I'll see you next time when I interview another amazing woman who discovered she's not lazy or crazy or broken. But she has ADHD and she's now on the path to understanding her neuro divergent mind and finally using this gift to her advantage. Take care till then

Transcribed by https://otter.ai