Caryn Gill: OCD, anxiety & therapy with ADHD

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Episode 143 with Caryn Gill.

“Other people say, ‘Oh, that's on my 5-year plan.’ And I think, I don't have a 5-year plan. It's now or never.”

Caryn is a Licensed Professional Counselor who specializes in OCD and anxiety disorders, and now ADHD thanks to her own diagnosis late last year. She currently works in private practice but has worn many hats in the past: as a clinical trainer and educator and as a music therapist working in hospitals and various clinics. She lives and works in Pennsylvania and is also licensed in CT, CA, and MO.

Caryn talks about how her diagnosis has changed her work with clients, and her choice to be open about her own diagnosis when some therapists with ADHD tend to "hide in the shadows" about their condition.

We also talk about neurodivergent anxiety and burnout and some of the root causes, and the need to develop boundaries and give ourselves space to be under-stimulated and underwhelmed in order to self-regulate and move beyond overwhelm.

Website: https://caryngilltherapy.com

Instagram: @therapist.caryn

Links:

Sign up for Caryn’s free crash course on building your counterstrategy to attack OCD and anxiety: https://caryngilltherapy.com

Enjoy!

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Katy Weber She Her (00:00.982)
Hi, Caryn, thank you so much for joining me. So I guess we'll get right started. I know you've been working as a professional counselor for about 10 years now, right?

Caryn Gill (00:03.749)
Thank you for having me.

Caryn Gill (00:16.29)
I was licensed in 2018, but I've been working in the field since 2013.

Katy Weber She Her (00:21.958)
Okay, gotcha. All right, so, but your diagnosis of ADHD is relatively new, right?

Caryn Gill (00:27.194)
Correct, yeah, so I was diagnosed in December of last year, 2022. Pretty, yeah, so pretty recently. But I've sort of kind of self-diagnosed in a way, you know, for a little longer than that. It was just more of like, do I need to get a formal diagnosis? Do I need a full eval? But then I was like, yeah, let me just do it just to kind of make sure, you know.

Katy Weber She Her (00:34.999)
December.

Caryn Gill (00:56.93)
and confirm what I had been suspecting for a while at that point.

Katy Weber She Her (01:00.522)
I know, right? I'm like, you know, whatever people ask is a professional diagnosis necessary? I'm like, it is, but it isn't, but it is, but it isn't. Like we diagnose ourselves, I think so much, you know, long before we ever actually talked to a clinician. So what exactly was going on in your life that you related to, that you started thinking, okay, maybe this is ADHD.

Caryn Gill (01:08.27)
Yeah.

Caryn Gill (01:13.941)
Yeah.

Caryn Gill (01:23.214)
Sure. So it was kind of at the beginning of the pandemic that my sister had actually like suggested, I guess she had spoken to a doctor herself and she was like, oh, the doctor actually suggested or brought up the possibility of ADHD. And I was like, what? That's not us, right? And then, you know, she sent me something from like, I think like...

Caryn Gill (01:48.79)
magazine or something and I was like holy cow right like this is this is me like to a T and so previous to that like I had always just thought that I was anxious or you know struggling with depression or just kind of stressed right and it was always like oh once once things calm down I'll like have my life together once things calm down you know or like maybe this this maybe it's just like once I

Caryn Gill (02:15.554)
get to like a more, once I just like have the time to like clean my apartment or clean my house, like I'll be fine, right? And it just never seemed to ever resolve. And it was like, no matter what, like it would follow me wherever I went, whatever job I had. And so I think I realized also as an anxiety therapist working with people who actually have generalized anxiety disorder, I'm...

Caryn Gill (02:40.202)
I sit there and I'm like, I don't relate to this. This isn't me. I'm stressed all the time. I'm worried about things all the time, but I don't relate to you. I don't really understand why you're so worried about these things, yet we're supposedly supposed to be very similar, because we have the same diagnosis or whatever. And so I was like, well, I have.

Caryn Gill (03:05.334)
some, like on the surface, some similarities with people with generalized anxiety disorder in the sense that, you know, I'm, I'm, I have trouble relaxing or I'm kind of like my mind's always going, but it never felt like the same. It was always just like a little off to me, having that diagnosis. So I think I always kind of felt like there was something different about what I'm experiencing. Yeah.

Katy Weber She Her (03:23.534)
Mm-hmm.

Katy Weber She Her (03:33.098)
Yeah, that's oh wow, that's so interesting. Because I was also diagnosed with anxiety. And I feel like I'm not without anxiety. Right? I mean, I certainly have a lot of anxiety, especially social anxiety, but a lot of my anxiety diagnoses were around postpartum anxiety. And they were much more kind of intrusive thoughts and fear based. And so it's been interesting to think about.

Caryn Gill (03:41.143)
Sure, yeah.

Caryn Gill (03:50.135)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Katy Weber She Her (03:58.422)
those diagnoses because so many of us are diagnosed with anxiety long before an ADHD diagnosis. So it's there but I think yeah it can look so different depending on how it presents and why.

Caryn Gill (04:05.209)
Right.

Caryn Gill (04:13.087)
Yeah, yeah.

Katy Weber She Her (04:15.047)
So, okay, so your sister was having similar pandemic issues?

Caryn Gill (04:19.686)
Right, yeah and funny enough, I don't know if she ever went in to get like a full eval or anything either, but um I think like she her bringing it up and passing was really the spark um and you know like reading more about it was like a light bulb went off and I made like a I was talking to somebody the other day I forget who but basically I was like it was almost like all of the foreshadowing it's like watching looking back on a movie you just finished and being like

Caryn Gill (04:47.778)
The foreshadowing, oh my gosh, there was so much foreshadowing, that's what it felt like to finally realize. I was like, wait a second, this is me.

Katy Weber She Her (04:49.472)
UGH

Katy Weber She Her (04:53.902)
That's...

Katy Weber She Her (04:57.722)
Oh my God, right? It's like going back and watching the, uh, what was the I see dead people movie? Right? The six. It's like going back and rewatching that.

Caryn Gill (05:03.526)
uh, the suspense. Right. Like, oh, no wonder she just, like, she was, like, eating by herself, no wonder! Or, like, you know, it makes no sense. I don't know. Right.

Katy Weber She Her (05:14.251)
That's such a perfect description of that feeling of like going over our whole lives with this fine tooth comb just being like, Oh my goodness. And I think also too was like one of the things for me was like, I didn't even acknowledge how much I was struggling in certain situations.

Caryn Gill (05:21.367)
All right.

Caryn Gill (05:31.375)
Alright.

Katy Weber She Her (05:31.962)
until my diagnosis where I had to look back and be like oh yeah like I really really struggled in school in these ways right there were some ways I didn't but there were some ways where I was like oh I didn't realize this wasn't a universal experience that this was something unique to me or or to ADHD. So I'm curious when when looking back in your childhood and over the course of your life and parenting and all that like what were some of the things that

Caryn Gill (05:40.45)
Right.

Caryn Gill (05:47.148)
Okay.

Katy Weber She Her (05:59.5)
jumped out at you as like as the signs were there all along moments.

Caryn Gill (06:03.186)
Right, so this is probably one of my favorite stories to tell. When I was in grade school, like third through sixth grade, I was really into art. I loved painting. I loved studying about all the artists, and especially 19th century expressionism was my thing.

Caryn Gill (06:25.522)
And so in school we were learning about cave paintings and the assignment was to recreate a painting. And so I only heard recreate painting totally missed the context of cave painting. So I worked really hard on recreating like the Edward Munch painting, The Scream. Like oil paint, like it was like a full canvas. Like I was so proud of it. And I walk into school and I was like, uh-oh. One of these things is not like the other. Like why doesn't, like why, where are...

Katy Weber She Her (06:51.246)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Caryn Gill (06:54.938)
the other paintings, right? Like everyone was walking in with like cave painting recreations and my teacher, like I think she gave me a good grade because she saw how much effort I had put into it. But like, I just would miss details like that, or I would forget, like I would have memories of like doing science fair projects or like school assignments the night before, because I would forget that they were due, right? Or, um,

Caryn Gill (07:22.434)
Like in school sometimes you would have to wear certain things. There were certain themed days and I would just show up like not knowing like that it was happening or just like things like that. Or like I remember when I think back to school, like I remember like these vivid memories of me just sitting at the kitchen counter like trying to do my homework and just feeling so like I was like I just can't do it. Like I just it physically feels like I can't do it.

Caryn Gill (07:49.95)
And I would just need so much time just to A, get into it, and B, to complete it. And I would stay up till like past midnight, especially in high school. Like I would stay up like so late just finishing homework because it was just so hard. And I just always thought like, oh, well that's because I'm an honors student and like school is hard. Like it was, I thought it was normal. And the idea of like people like having jobs and doing like all these other things, it just would boggle my mind. I'm like, how do people do it? Like, I don't know.

Caryn Gill (08:18.866)
I just thought they were overachievers and I was a slacker when really it was like these other things going on. Yeah.

Katy Weber She Her (08:28.178)
Oh my gosh, that's so relatable. Yeah. You know, it's funny. Um, especially the part about like always feeling like there was something that you missed, I think that's a very common experience for us where there was like a detail where it's like, is that, is that just like that we rush things? Cause I see that with my son, with math, my son is very, very good at math, but he has this issue where like he will go too quickly and he'll miss and he'll miss something and he doesn't, you know, math is really difficult to

Caryn Gill (08:35.935)
Right. Yeah.

Katy Weber She Her (08:57.09)
self edit right like you don't know if you've got a question wrong and so he'll sometimes he'll do really really well in math but then other times he'll get like a 50 because he had the same error over and over and over again because he was convinced that he was doing it a certain way and and i'm like that feels so adhd to me that feeling of just like forging ahead without self editing um

Caryn Gill (08:58.371)
Right.

Caryn Gill (09:07.455)
Yeah.

Caryn Gill (09:15.29)
All right.

Caryn Gill (09:18.962)
Right, right.

Katy Weber She Her (09:19.59)
in in those but it was really interesting to me to hear this concept of being stuck on input that we talked about i've talked about this in past episodes about you know one of the

Katy Weber She Her (09:28.63)
difficulties and it's like a processing issue, right? Where it's like, we're very good at taking in information, but it's really difficult for us to then turn around and process that information into an essay or into like a thought, right? And how like for me in school, that really made me feel very dumb because I was like, I don't know what I need to do. Like I'm reading everything, I'm attending classes. Like I'm understanding it, I think, but then when it's time for me to turn around and actually prove that I understand that, I would just be completely

Caryn Gill (09:40.906)
Right. Right.

Katy Weber She Her (09:58.742)
paralyzed.

Caryn Gill (09:59.798)
Right, right. It's like the, it's like life just feels like one giant word document with like the little, what are the little blinky thing, the cursor, yeah, just kind of like staring at you. Like it's just, yeah, it's an awful feeling. And I think even as an adult, right, so I'm in, I'm in private practice and I just came off of maternity leave and so that's like a whole nother ball game. And I'm like,

Katy Weber She Her (10:05.678)
I'm sorry.

Katy Weber She Her (10:09.378)
the cursor.

Caryn Gill (10:26.75)
in my head, like cognitively, I know what I need to do to market and get clients and establish a practice. And it's like, but in my head, I could probably tell other people how to do it, but I don't know how to do it for myself. It's just like a whole nother thing. So it's the same, it's like the adult equivalent of writing an essay, I think. So, yeah.

Katy Weber She Her (10:48.318)
Oh my, right? Yeah, I like that. You have a gift for metaphor. I like the metaphor of the cursor too. That feels... Ha!

Caryn Gill (10:53.438)
Yeah, that's, I always, it kind of makes sense now. I'm like, oh, it's because like, I'm like really, my brain is just like constantly making connections with things, which I think is a gift. But you know, it also can make it hard when I'm trying to just focus on one thing. Yeah.

Katy Weber She Her (11:09.514)
Right? Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's funny. I've worked with, um, I've worked with several therapists at this point now who all really struggle with client notes for that reason, right? Like client notes are like the bane of their existence because it's like, how do I put a one hour conversation into the, you know, how do I, when everything is so nuanced and interconnected, you know, it's like, how do I even put this into words?

Caryn Gill (11:19.791)
Right.

Caryn Gill (11:23.178)
Right.

Caryn Gill (11:34.486)
Right, yeah, like I've had to kind of train myself to almost like purposely be what I would perceive as like overly vague because then that's it's just enough. And so I'm like this is a bad note, but then I'm like oh it actually just meets like everybody's like all the auditors think they're fine so this is okay. Right, exactly.

Katy Weber She Her (11:44.679)
Mmm.

Katy Weber She Her (11:51.09)
Right? You're like, it just needs to be done. Yeah. So now how did you get involved then in your specializing in OCD and anxiety? What was there? I mean, I feel like there was some kind of personal relationship to that.

Caryn Gill (12:03.959)
Yeah.

Caryn Gill (12:06.694)
Right, right. Yeah, it was actually, I kind of joked that it was an accident. Like I know some people, they're like, oh, yeah, like I studied in grad school, like I like purposely like only so like I specialized on it and like on purpose because I like for me it was I was working in patient and I was so burnt out. It's sort of like somebody with ADHD is like nightmare because it's very routine and rigid, but it's also really unpredictable and like over stimulating from like a sensory perspective and

Caryn Gill (12:36.598)
It's also just really draining, right? Like physically and emotionally. And so I was really burnt out. And at the time I was like, well, I really like doing hair and makeup. Like I was doing my own hair, like doing foils on myself and like, you know, just like love makeup, right? And so I was like, maybe I'll go to beauty school. And so I was like, let me switch careers all together. Even though I have a master's degree and all that kind of stuff, like let me just impulsively quit my job and.

Katy Weber She Her (12:58.998)
Uh.

Caryn Gill (13:04.99)
look in the beauty school and then I got pregnant and so then I was like, well, I should probably get a job that's like stable, right? And so I applied to work at this clinic and I was like, I don't know anything about OCD. I've worked inpatient, like so substance use, schizophrenia, like all of like more, much more, not, I don't wanna say severe, because OCD can also be very severe, but just not necessarily OCD. And so I took the job and.

Caryn Gill (13:32.766)
loved it. And then that kind of, I, this now looking back, I'm like, yeah, this was totally an ADHD thing where I just was like, so hyper focused on it. Like I would like listen to podcasts all about it on my way to work, on my way home from work, I would read books. So very quickly, it became kind of like a thing that I knew a lot about and I was really good at it. So that's how I kind of fell into the OCD world.

Katy Weber She Her (13:58.67)
Uh, that's fascinating. Cause I actually was just recently doing a presentation in class about anxiety and hadn't really thought about how much overlap there was until all of the good anxiety resources were all coming from the international OCT society.

Caryn Gill (14:16.135)
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Katy Weber She Her (14:16.582)
Or is it, it was anxiety in the classroom.org was this amazing resource and it was all coming from the OCD world. And I was like, oh, right. That makes a lot of sense. Um, because, you know, I think OCD is one of those, it falls under one of those, um, it's one of the diagnoses. Many of us receive before ADHD. I think there is a lot of overlap there. And in terms of controlling your environment, right. And that.

Caryn Gill (14:21.073)
Oh, interesting, yeah.

Caryn Gill (14:27.424)
Great.

Caryn Gill (14:35.582)
Yeah.

Caryn Gill (14:43.254)
Alright.

Katy Weber She Her (14:43.782)
you know, I feel like there's so many different diagnoses that all come back to a desire for control. Right. Um, and, uh, so it's fascinating to me how, how ADHD, all the many ways in which we look at the four, we, we miss the forest for the trees or whatever the phrasing should be.

Caryn Gill (14:49.902)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.

Caryn Gill (15:03.562)
Yeah, I never really understood that phrase. But yeah, they go together a lot, but they're kind of qualitatively very different, sort of like how anxiety and ADHD can kind of like look very similar, but the quality of them are very different. But not to say you can't have both, right? Like lots of people have both. You know, ADHD kind of is like, it's really common. So like the odds are that if you have

Caryn Gill (15:31.918)
something else, like you might also have ADHD. But I think a lot of people are misdiagnosed, especially in the idea of like, well, I have to feel right in order to begin this. But that can also vary, like, as somebody with ADHD, it's like, yeah, I relate to that. I have to wanna do it, and it has to feel like the right moment, right? But that's not necessarily OCD, right? It kinda gets lumped under, like just right OCD, for example. Or...

Caryn Gill (16:02.398)
I've had intakes of people who are like, yeah, I have to check all my locks and my stoves and my appliances. And I heard that that's an OCD thing. And then you just dig a little bit deeper and you're like, oh no, you have a history of leaving your stove on. Like that's, that's way different. That's very different than somebody who like with their own two eyes can see that it's, it's turned off and still doubting it. Right. And so it is, it is very interesting, right? Like they're, they run together a lot.

Caryn Gill (16:32.45)
they're kind of incredibly, they're different also at the same time.

Katy Weber She Her (16:38.202)
Okay, that's interesting because I now now I'm thinking about those repetitive behaviors in terms of like anxiety and needing to check if I the stove is left or, you know, remind me of some of the elaborate systems that many of us came up with to manage executive dysfunction and how I've talked about like, I don't I never thought I lost my keys because I had very, you know, elaborate ways in which I had to

Caryn Gill (16:49.18)
Okay.

Caryn Gill (16:55.362)
All right. All right.

Katy Weber She Her (17:04.458)
you know, and so that I didn't lose them, which you're right, must come from a history of losing things.

Caryn Gill (17:09.558)
Right, the function of them are different. It's just like functionally different. And like the, yeah, the reason behind them is different, like the kind of subjective experience of that is different. But on the surface, it looks the same. So I think this is like where like really good clinical skills come in handy, right? When you're meeting with a therapist or if you are a therapist, kind of trying to suss things out. It's important because things can look the same on the surface. It's like those snakes that...

Caryn Gill (17:39.402)
look the same, but one's poisonous and one's not. Like it's like, yeah, you can't just rely on what things look like, right?

Katy Weber She Her (17:47.283)
So how has your ADHD diagnosis changed your view of OCD and anxiety?

Caryn Gill (17:55.626)
I think I'm just like a lot more careful. Basically what I was just saying is like, it's important really to not just go based off of like the DSM checklist and be like check, check, check, check, check, but also like, what is it that, how does it feel to experience these symptoms, right? Like what is the why behind these behaviors?

Caryn Gill (18:23.714)
So like, are you really rigid about, you know, where you put your keys down and how you go about things because if you don't follow that rigidity, it kind of falls apart, right? Or is it because like you've, there's like other kind of rules and like the expectations, is it like rigidity due for other reasons, right? I think that's a really important, that's, you know, that's an example of like how, how like the differences can really point to,

Caryn Gill (18:56.003)
But basically, the differences can really point to different treatment and different names that we refer to things as.

Katy Weber She Her (19:06.23)
Mm hmm. Yeah, that's what I always sort of have complained about in with therapy in the past. And I think why a lot of people with ADHD have had problematic past relationship with therapy.

Caryn Gill (19:22.41)
Yeah. Sure.

Katy Weber She Her (19:22.714)
And this is such a blanket statement. I mean, obviously everybody's different, but I feel like one of the things that I wish there had been more curiosity about with my depression and anxiety diagnosis is the why, like you said, right? Like it almost felt like I was diagnosed with depression and anxiety, like it was this, like it was a genetic condition.

Katy Weber She Her (19:41.598)
which I suppose it can be, right? Like I feel like it's treated very often by clinicians. Like it's this thing that you just have and nobody knows where it came from, but you just have it and now we need to treat it. And now looking back at this ADHD, through the lens of this ADHD diagnosis, I'm like, why weren't we more curious about the why, especially around the anxiety? And so I think that's one of the things where people feel,

Caryn Gill (19:49.034)
Mm-hmm. Right. Right.

Caryn Gill (20:02.283)
Right, yeah.

Katy Weber She Her (20:10.782)
ADHD people who are diagnosed in adulthood feel kind of like they had been let down by, by a therapeutic relationship because there was this just fundamental misunderstanding about behaviors or something. I don't know. That's, I think this is my new hyper-focus is therapy and neurodivergent therapy. Right. And because I feel like as a coach, um, it felt like, uh, the two of them, it felt like counseling and therapy and coaching need to be.

Caryn Gill (20:16.482)
Oh.

Caryn Gill (20:21.454)
Right.

Caryn Gill (20:23.958)
Sure, yeah.

Caryn Gill (20:29.102)
Great.

Katy Weber She Her (20:40.586)
go hand in hand, right? And so I think a lot of therapists end up going into coaching or adopting coaching methods with neurodiversion clients. But as a coming at it from a coach, I was like, using a lot of, I felt like I was working with a lot of clients who had trauma and weren't seeing a therapist because they felt like, well, therapists don't get me, right? I've had bad experiences with therapy and what I really want is to like fix this and move on and move forward and be actionable.

Caryn Gill (20:41.945)
Right.

Caryn Gill (20:47.982)
I mean, right.

Caryn Gill (21:03.782)
Yeah.

Katy Weber She Her (21:09.738)
I don't want to talk about my childhood. And I was like, but no, you really need to unpack some of this stuff before we can move forward. Right?

Caryn Gill (21:09.922)
Right. Right.

Caryn Gill (21:17.2)
I think I have these yes ands, right? I think when I would talk about the shame I would feel about just kind of not being able to keep up with things or feeling like I couldn't get things done the way I wanted them to or just feeling frustrated with myself, I think a lot of well-meaning therapists...

Caryn Gill (21:41.626)
come at it with me from a sense of, well, why are you feeling shame? It's okay to feel that way. I'm like, no, no, no, you don't understand. It's very, very painful for me. I don't wanna feel this way. I'm tired of feeling like this, right? Like, yes, I don't think I'm inherently a bad person, but I feel like, I don't know if I could curse, but I feel like.

Katy Weber She Her (22:01.714)
Oh yeah. Yeah.

Caryn Gill (22:02.422)
I just feel like a piece of shit all the time, you know what I mean? And that is, there is a reason for that. And like, I just want somebody to like validate that reason, you know? And I think, um, I think that is missing sometimes when you have therapists who, especially with like the whole like, you know, like, um, self-compassion and like not feeling ashamed of who you are and like shame and perfectionism. Like, yeah, that's all great, right? But I think for a lot of people with ADHD, especially women with ADHD, like,

Caryn Gill (22:32.202)
You can't kind of like self-compassion your way out of things when like you feel like the systems around you just aren't working for you and like your brain isn't working the way you would want it to work. And it's, yeah, it's, it can get really frustrating and like actually inadvertently like feel very invalidating. Yeah.

Katy Weber She Her (22:50.534)
Yeah, right. And then but then on the flip side, I think there's also that issue, which I certainly experienced as a coach before I was diagnosed with ADHD and really understood executive dysfunction, which was, you know, having clients and we would work together and be like, okay, this week, I'm going to do the thing. And then they would come back the week later. And they didn't do the thing because even as much as they wanted to do the thing they were incapable of.

Katy Weber She Her (23:14.646)
doing that and I didn't know enough about executive dysfunction. So I felt like a terrible coach cause I couldn't get them to do the thing. And they felt like a terrible person because they couldn't get, and we always felt, you know, I always felt like we were at this impasse of failure, uh, you know, mutual failure. And, and now with knowing what I know about executive dysfunction, I'm like, Oh, it was all, it was never about desire, right? It was always about ability and strategy and all of that. So I just feel like they work, they're so intertwined. And that's why I've

Caryn Gill (23:15.615)
Right.

Caryn Gill (23:23.342)
for you.

Caryn Gill (23:28.066)
Right, yeah.

Caryn Gill (23:37.422)
Right.

Caryn Gill (23:40.526)
Great, totally.

Katy Weber She Her (23:44.49)
I'm obsessed with trying to get more therapists understanding what ADHD looks like, especially in adult women. And so I'm curious for you too, like how has your diagnosis affected how you are as a therapist? Cause I know you had also said that your ADHD affects you professionally, it affects your colleague relationships, but also.

Caryn Gill (23:51.098)
when.

Katy Weber She Her (24:11.766)
Work-life balance and burnout, right, is a huge thing for...

Caryn Gill (24:14.078)
Oh yeah, for sure, for sure. I think it impacts how I'm able to work in, this is such a vague statement, but I think for me I need kind of constant breaks and I think there's such a, you know, working, I had worked for a big kind of telehealth company for, it seems like it's actually not that long of a time, but.

Caryn Gill (24:40.926)
I feel like pandemic years excuse everything. It felt like a long time. It was like two and a half years, right? But I think working in a tech company, like a telehealth company, where everyone has access to everybody's Google calendars, just in seeing what's blocked off and everything. It's like, well, what's all this white space for then?

Katy Weber She Her (24:42.943)
Right?

Caryn Gill (25:04.286)
And it's like, well, my brain literally needs it, right? Even if I didn't have ADHD, I don't think it's healthy to be in meetings for eight hours a day. But when you're working in a very productivity growth startup culture, you feel like a giant lazy failure if you're not able to keep up, right? And so I think also in private practice, we get paid...

Katy Weber She Her (25:04.876)
Mmm.

Caryn Gill (25:33.146)
per service, right? We're paid by how much time, face-to-face client time, we have, and so it's also really tempting. Like, I would get into the habit of, like, suddenly, I would look at my calendar with, like, a sense of doom and be like, I have nine hours of face-to-face client sessions booked today. I have no time to eat, no time to use the bathroom. And there was that kind of, like, I couldn't understand, like, I guess, like, time blindness, right? Like, I didn't understand, like,

Caryn Gill (26:01.222)
oh, if I just schedule this person, like that's another hour. Right? Like that's not like, it's an abstract concept on my Google calendar. And so I've had to kind of implement a lot of limits of like blocking things off, even though in the moment I'm like, I don't need lunch. And it's like, no, you need lunch, right? Like, no, like having, you know, a strict start and end time, that's actually a good thing. Right? Yeah. And I think like colleague relationships, like I am somebody who's like, I'm like,

Katy Weber She Her (26:04.542)
Mm-hmm.

Caryn Gill (26:30.97)
craves a human connection, right? I love, I'm like one of those nerds, I actually really like icebreakers, I like networking and like meeting people, not for any personal gain, but just because I'm like a chit-chatter, you know? And I think like my, I didn't know what it was at the time, but like RSD was huge when like, I would like not be invited to certain meetings, not because I like.

Caryn Gill (26:59.946)
wasn't good at what I did or that they not because they didn't value my input or my perspectives, but just because I really wasn't needed, right? But it felt really, really painful. And I was aware, I was like, this is not rational, right? Like this, this feeling of feeling left out all the time. It was like, it was just like not good for my psyche, I think. And so I had to do a lot of work. So to really take a step back and be like, okay, like I'm, I'm not being like

Katy Weber She Her (27:08.373)
Mm-hmm.

Caryn Gill (27:27.806)
excluded, I just don't need to be everywhere. I'm not a bad employee or I'm not bad at my job because I'm not everything to everyone all at once. I don't need to be excellent at everything. Me not being added to some random Slack channel doesn't mean that I'm not valued. I think there was some truth to it, honestly, but I think it just felt very, very personal to me.

Caryn Gill (27:57.902)
um when like it and it was much more painful than i think it was to really anybody else on my team um when i would talk to them about it they're like it's okay like it's just work and i'm like but you don't understand like this is my identity like this is everything i am you know um so yeah

Katy Weber She Her (28:11.394)
Yeah. Oh my gosh, that reminds so poignant to like, that's why I left Facebook was very much of that RSD, which I you know, that FOMO all the time of feeling like I would see pictures of two other people I knew hanging out together, and I would just feel so rejected. And I really and but I like you said, like I knew it was not a rational reaction where I'm like,

Caryn Gill (28:22.292)
right?

Katy Weber She Her (28:34.63)
I didn't need to be invited to everything, right? Like there are people are other people can hang out together and the, you know, they've known each other for much longer. Like I always had these rational reasons, but it would, it was painful, uh, to that level of FOMO that was, I would experience from social media and still do right where I'm just like, I need to get off of here. Um, but that's so interesting. Like, um, in terms of, uh, needing to be everywhere and everywhere.

Caryn Gill (28:37.119)
Right.

Caryn Gill (28:42.635)
Right.

Caryn Gill (28:50.062)
Right. Right. Right.

Katy Weber She Her (29:01.414)
and every needing to be everywhere and showing up in all ways, I think is something that we, I'm like, I think it's interesting if it's a time blindness thing, but I think it's also this like, um, I don't know if it's, if it's, I think it comes back to that idea of like, um, the belief that

Katy Weber She Her (29:23.91)
any sign of incompetence is somehow failure, right? So I think there's like a masking element to that needing to show up and be all there, all things for all people, right? Like it is a real sense of like, I need people to see that I am the very best at everything, or I need that validation.

Caryn Gill (29:30.373)
Yeah.

Caryn Gill (29:34.755)
Right.

Caryn Gill (29:42.806)
Right, right, yeah. And also, I kind of feel like it's also a sense of hyperactivity. Like, if I don't do this now, I'm never gonna get to it. And I think that's been more applicable, starting this small business, like a private practice. It's like, I'm like, oh, I wanna get certified in this, and I wanna do this, and I wanna specialize in this, and I wanna do this, and I wanna go and make this. Yeah, and I'm like, I don't need to do all of this all at once.

Caryn Gill (30:12.61)
But I have this fear of like, if I don't get to it, it doesn't exist. Like I'm just gonna forget it. Like, if I don't capitalize on this, I'm gonna miss the train completely and that's it, right? And I think like, I think people who don't have ADHD would just be like, oh, well that's on my like five year plan. And I'm like, I don't have a five year plan. It's now or never, right? And that's so stressful. Like there'd be times where I would just like.

Katy Weber She Her (30:17.798)
Yeah.

Katy Weber She Her (30:36.087)
Ehh

Caryn Gill (30:40.474)
I feel so overwhelmed and I end up like, it's one of those things where, because I'm not focused or trying to like, just devote my focus and my attention to one thing at a time, I end up doing like a lot of things really badly. Or like, you know, not fully, or not really well prepared or thought out. And I say yes to a lot of things that like I probably shouldn't say yes to, and then I'm stressed out and burnt out and so.

Caryn Gill (31:08.534)
Yeah, the hyperactivity piece, I think it shows up in like different ways. Like I'm not like an eight year old boy that's bouncing off the walls necessarily. But I think I'm like mentally hyperactive in that sense. Yeah.

Katy Weber She Her (31:20.878)
Oh yeah. Right. And, and, and it's so true. What you say about like managing our energy and how a lot of the time we end up burnt out on things because we're doing all the things we love to do. And we're really excitable. And I think that is a side of that hyperactivity, that excitability and that, that desire to do things now, the urgency of it all. Um, but like we say, yeah, saying yes to all of the things I've talked about this on the podcast too before, um, a woman, uh, I think it was late them.

Caryn Gill (31:33.708)
Uh-huh.

Caryn Gill (31:38.041)
Right.

Katy Weber She Her (31:46.402)
Gosh, I can't remember her last name, but she's like a life coach. And she was talking about how she manages her schedule. And she says like, if it's not a hell yes, then it's a no. And so if she's not like super excited about something, she won't do it as a way to manage her energy. And I remember at the time, this was before my diagnosis thinking like, but what do you do when everything feels like a hell yes? Right? Like I feel like I want to do all the things. And then I ended up working seven days a week. And then I don't, you know, like I don't force.

Caryn Gill (31:49.466)
I don't know.

Caryn Gill (31:56.57)
Yeah.

Caryn Gill (32:09.909)
Right.

Katy Weber She Her (32:15.142)
that downtime like you talked about with the nine clients, like you genuinely, there's some part of you that genuinely wants to see as many people as possible and help as many people as possible. But if you don't manage your energy, you're not gonna be your best self for anybody, including yourself, yeah.

Caryn Gill (32:16.784)
Right.

Caryn Gill (32:22.99)
Great.

Caryn Gill (32:26.078)
Right? Right. Because there's also this idea of like, well, what's another hour? Like, what's another hour? Right? Or like, well, I could do that. What's yeah, whatever. What's another hour? Um, I was like laughing when you were saying like, if everything, if it's not a hell yes, like everything's a hell yes. But like maybe it's like some things are just like a heck yes. Like, I don't know. I don't like I have to be some sort of like gradual kind of a scale to it.

Katy Weber She Her (32:32.874)
Right?

Katy Weber She Her (32:47.097)
Uh...

Caryn Gill (32:54.654)
And like, I think for me, if everything is so exciting and I don't know where to start, I just sit there and I just am like, oh, let me just go on TikTok then. Like, I don't know. I can't, I end up just not doing anything, which is also a problem for sure.

Katy Weber She Her (32:54.922)
Right? No.

Katy Weber She Her (33:00.238)
Mm-hmm.

Katy Weber She Her (33:07.626)
Yeah. Well, I feel like I have to be very strict in terms of categorizing my boundary. Like, so for instance, like I will have a limit to how many people I can talk to in a day, because I know where I'm like, even though it feels like I want to do them all, I have like a very like numeric limits because I'm like, we know what happens. We've seen what happens when you, you know, see too many people you end up.

Caryn Gill (33:25.388)
I'm sorry.

Caryn Gill (33:30.208)
Yeah.

Katy Weber She Her (33:31.818)
being burnt out or canceling. And so, so, and same with like, I have to not do any work on Saturday. It's just a non-negotiable because otherwise I would. Um, and so I've just like, I have to draw that line in the sand. It's like, you know, current me has to look out for future me because future me is, uh, and then future me is appreciative, but I feel like it's been, I've had to be so strict about what I like, even coming up to those.

Caryn Gill (33:39.059)
All right.

Caryn Gill (33:48.095)
Great. Yeah.

Katy Weber She Her (34:00.542)
like before you even come to that mode, I guess is what I'm trying to say. Like I'm, I don't feel like I'm articulating it well, but it's like when I'm in the moment, I'm not very good at making those decisions. So like when I'm in a calm regulated state, that's when I have to make those decisions about my boundaries.

Caryn Gill (34:04.431)
Right.

Caryn Gill (34:14.19)
Right, right. Yeah, I feel like I read, I don't remember where I read this, but something about how our brains are really developed for crises and we would have been like, you know, like our kind of ability to kind of see everything and think about everything all at once and be really like, it's helpful in that sense because I think when things are really like

Caryn Gill (34:42.346)
a lot. I don't know if I'm making any sense. But like when things are calm, it's kind of like, oh, what do we do? Like we're like, ah, like we need, we need like that kind of stimulation. And so like, I think for me, I almost have to kind of purposely underwhelm myself to kind of like be like at a good level. Like this weekend, I am not, I don't have any plans on Saturday in my head. I'm like, oh, we have plans tonight. I have plans on Sunday. I have plans on Monday.

Caryn Gill (35:11.946)
And then I'm like, no, Saturday, like I need to like actually leave that as white space, you know, like I need, I need that empty space and I know I'm going to be grateful for it. Like.

Katy Weber She Her (35:20.306)
But you're right. Sometimes, right? But sometimes it's really hard to be in that space in the moment, right? Where it's like, you know, I can schedule in that downtime, but oftentimes it's excruciating to do nothing. Uh.

Caryn Gill (35:30.221)
in it.

Caryn Gill (35:33.994)
Right, right, right. And I think that's also like a kind of points to that idea. It's like the larger equivalent of like when I'm trying to leave the house on time and I have 10 minutes and like, I can do this. I can do this thing really quick, right? Like I was it was 950 and I'm like, I should probably like try to log on. I'm like, I have time to paint my nails. I'm like, no, not like do not paint your nails. You do not have time to paint your nails.

Katy Weber She Her (36:01.058)
That's so funny. I know I always set a 10 minute timer on my watch before I'm supposed to log on. And it's always amazing to me the things I think I can do in that 10 minute time period. Ha ha ha.

Caryn Gill (36:04.819)
No.

Caryn Gill (36:11.758)
Right, right, yeah. Like I, yeah, it's been like a definitely a perspective shift and like, okay, if I want to do things well, or like what I, if I want to feel good about what I'm doing, I'm trying not to use like judgy language towards myself, but like if I want to feel good about what I'm doing, I need to actually do less and like commit to less and, and like it's, it's okay because like less is actually like just enough.

Caryn Gill (36:39.398)
You know, it's like a weird like mind shift. Like, you know, even clinically, if I want to do something well, I can't suddenly become an expert in everything, right? Like I kind of have to just focus on one thing at a time and that's okay. Or like that's actually like a really good thing for my brain. Yeah. Well, you know.

Katy Weber She Her (37:03.178)
Yeah, you know, it was interesting. I was thinking about burnout and burnout as a counselor. One of the things I was surprised when I was doing some research into burnout and it was for an ethics class and it was so we were

Katy Weber She Her (37:15.586)
talking about the ethical implications of burnout and impairment. And one of the things that was listed as a common factor toward counselor burnout was the inherent ambiguity of problems, you know, working with clients. And I found that really interesting cause that's like, I feel like inherent ambiguity is something a lot of neurodivergent brains struggle with, right? Like we have very rigid thinking. We're such so problem solving oriented that when you

Caryn Gill (37:31.774)
Right.

Caryn Gill (37:44.295)
Right.

Katy Weber She Her (37:45.76)
can't jump in and solve problems. Um, it can be super stressful. I'm curious, like, is that something that you historically have? Do you have, do you have a way? I'm worried about that in terms of my own practice. Is there a way that you deal with that?

Caryn Gill (37:50.467)
Yeah.

Caryn Gill (38:00.266)
Yeah, oh totally. Yeah, totally. I think when I found OCD treatment, I was like, oh, this is very concrete. It's very active, right? We're doing stuff in session. And then when I started to practice, I kind of took on some more general mental health talk therapy clients. And I remember really struggling. I just was like, considering my job is literally to listen to people, I am not good at this, right?

Caryn Gill (38:29.906)
Um, and I think like I've, I've kind of had to take a shift. Like I talked to one of my friends and she was like, yeah, just, just imagine that you're like listening to a story and you're picking up on plot points. And that honestly helped me so much. But like, um, I think like the inherent ambiguity of like, how is this going to be solved, what even like, they're so like, when is this going to be solved? What does that look like? Right. Like that I think is like, that was like inpatient work.

Caryn Gill (38:59.482)
to a T, right? Or like working with like trauma or like people who are in like really high risk situations. It's like, I think I, and this is just like a quick, like kind of hypothesis in my head. I wonder if there was a connection between that and like the kind of orientation towards justice and like kind of feeling really like frustrated at injustice and like, because it's like there are solutions and why aren't we implementing the solutions and like, this is not okay. And why can't we just do this? Okay.

Katy Weber She Her (39:28.294)
Right? Yeah.

Caryn Gill (39:29.742)
Like, am I not okay with things being just, like that's just how things are, when like the solution's right there, like why aren't we implementing it? Yeah.

Katy Weber She Her (39:37.462)
Well, and I really struggle with that feeling of like, it's up to me to solve the problem, right? Which is something that as a therapist, you have to, you can't like, you have to resist that actively resist that. And so I'm always sort of like, where's that coming from? Why is, is that a control? Is that like a control response, which is sort of, you know, that feeling of like, Oh, I see somebody in need. It's up to me to make them feel better. It's up to me to help them. Um, and, and, and how can I solve their problem?

Caryn Gill (39:42.775)
Right.

Caryn Gill (39:47.49)
Right. Right away.

Katy Weber She Her (40:07.376)
them. And I feel like that's is where's that coming from? That's what I'm curious about.

Caryn Gill (40:08.331)
Right, yeah.

Caryn Gill (40:13.654)
Yeah, that is an interesting... Yeah, I don't know.

Katy Weber She Her (40:16.938)
Cause I think you're right. I think it is, it is something that like we see a lot of in that justice, um, justice oriented mindset and that like intense empathy and compassion fatigue and all of that stuff that I think a lot of us experience.

Caryn Gill (40:27.96)
Yeah.

Caryn Gill (40:31.002)
Right. Not to mention, like, the impulsivity, like, in meetings. Like, I kind of had a reputation for being, like, very fiery, you know? Like, I would go on these, like, sermons, you know, essentially. And like, it was good when it was good and when it was, like, not actually working, it was bad, right? And I think I can come across as very passionate at best and, like, kind of, like, strong in a bad way, you know?

Caryn Gill (41:00.786)
But I think because I just can't keep my mouth shut sometimes. I always joke, I can't stop running my mouth, right? I think it's definitely, I would have to kind of, I've been trying to censor myself in ways, which can be tough, right? But I think recognizing that I don't need to do, that's not something I have to do. I don't have to share myself with everybody in that sense.

Katy Weber She Her (41:03.982)
I'm sorry.

Katy Weber She Her (41:27.302)
Right? Well, I feel like I've gotten better at, at giving somebody at least a morning. Like I'll do that with my family members, especially my husband, where I'm like, okay, I am about to go on a side tangent. So if you don't want to listen to this, like you need to let me know now, because once I get started, I won't be able to stop. So I'm always like, this is your last exit before my soapbox. Yeah.

Caryn Gill (41:34.923)
Right.

Caryn Gill (41:39.32)
Right.

Caryn Gill (41:48.124)
Right. Right. It's like info dumping, but like about something that you're angry about, right? Like that's what it feels like to me. It's the same feeling as like talking about something that I'm like really happy and excited about, but like the quality. It's like, it's like now I'm just like angry about this. So like, oh, venting and like info dumping to me are like the same thing. It's just different flavors, you know.

Katy Weber She Her (42:07.154)
Right? Yeah. Right. But you're right. I think there is that impulsivity element that I think gets misconstrued as, um, like hogging the conversation or making it all about you, right? Or some of the ways in which our ADHD behaviors are interpreted as being anti-social behaviors where it's like, no, you don't understand. Like this is really exciting and important. Everybody needs to know that I can't help myself. Um, yeah.

Caryn Gill (42:18.699)
Right.

Caryn Gill (42:24.76)
Alright.

Caryn Gill (42:31.875)
Right. Right. Yeah, I just want to share this with you because it's so exciting to me and I want you to know about this really amazing thing where there's a really good idea or, you know, this thing, this issue that's really important, right?

Katy Weber She Her (42:37.282)
Ha ha ha ha ha

Katy Weber She Her (42:46.244)
So now have you have you talked about your diagnosis with any of your family?

Caryn Gill (42:51.73)
I mentioned it to, I mean I've talked about it with my sisters and I mentioned it to my mom and it's like funny because my sister's a psychiatrist and I'm a therapist and like coming from a family who like never really talked about mental health other than like like in the sense of like oh she's struggling she probably needs to like pray or go to a retreat or something like that. I think it's just funny that we both ended up like two out of three of us are in like the mental health field. But yeah my mom was like.

Katy Weber She Her (43:11.99)
Yeah.

Caryn Gill (43:19.822)
said that? Who told you that?" And I'm like, I literally am a therapist and I went to a psychologist and he like ran all these tests on me and like evaluated me and everything. Like I went, I, it's not like an online personality quiz that I took. Like I did the full shebang, right? Um, and like my one sister, my psychiatrist sister probably, I think she sees it, she's like, oh yeah. And then my other sister is like, you don't have ADHD. Like you did great in school.

Katy Weber She Her (43:23.733)
Uff

Katy Weber She Her (43:35.639)
Eugh...

Caryn Gill (43:48.65)
like that really has nothing to do with it. It was a lot of work. I felt like I worked twice as hard to just get through, you know? Yeah, so it is interesting, yeah.

Katy Weber She Her (43:49.003)
Mm, right?

Katy Weber She Her (44:01.31)
Right? I know. And I think a lot of parents too almost see it like as an attack on their parenting, because I think it is so sort of certain generations really did feel like that was just poor parenting, right? Like, oh, those kids just need more discipline or they need more and more intervention. And

Caryn Gill (44:06.333)
What?

Caryn Gill (44:14.622)
Right.

Katy Weber She Her (44:17.422)
So I think, you know, there are parents who are like, what are you talking about? I don't, you were fine. You were fine because if you weren't fine, that was somehow something they missed or reflect, you know, it's an indication that they failed you somehow. And that's can be really hard. I mean, I feel like that with my own kids even, which is just like, how did I, how did we not see this? Right. What was I doing? And right. Yeah. Uh, yeah.

Caryn Gill (44:21.458)
Yeah. Yeah.

Caryn Gill (44:28.547)
All right.

Caryn Gill (44:30.914)
Right.

Caryn Gill (44:37.615)
Right. I was in the screens, like I let him have too many screens and now he has ADHD. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Katy Weber She Her (44:45.862)
Um, awesome. Okay. So now if you could rename ADHD, do you, would you call it something else?

Caryn Gill (44:52.758)
I like, I heard somebody refer to it as attention regulation hyperactivity disorder, which I kind of, I like that. And I think that the word disorder is kind of very loaded. I think of it as like, yes, it impacts us in a very negative way. I was actually just thinking about this this morning actually, about what constitutes a disorder and what constitutes something like just like the way that people are born and like the way our brains work, right?

Caryn Gill (45:22.766)
Is the disorder coming from within, like are we experiencing distress because of this? And I think that could be true for like things like OCD or depression or bipolar, things like that, right? Or is it dysfunctional because of like the external environment, like me trying to fit into this like very like neurotypical mental health tech startup and kind of being looked down upon for needing breaks and like, like, like my team.

Caryn Gill (45:49.142)
people on the leadership team would literally go in and look at people's calendars and say, well, why did they have so many breaks scheduled? Right? And I'm like, wow, I would like that. I've benefited from that, right? But that was seen as like, oh, she's trying to work the system. And so is it external? Would they function great if they didn't have to worry about meeting other people's standards or whatever?

Caryn Gill (46:18.666)
Yeah, and that gets into whole other can of words.

Katy Weber She Her (46:21.098)
Right? It's like, well, it's like nap culture in, you know, where it's like all of the evidence, all of the statistics, all of the studies show that if you allow your employees to take a nap in the afternoon, that they're actually more productive in the morning and after their nap. And but like capitalist society is like, no, no, that is not a thing. And then it's same. Right? And I think we're seeing the same thing with work from home culture, which is like for all intents and purposes, like people are doing better.

Caryn Gill (46:26.051)
Yeah.

Caryn Gill (46:41.425)
30 minutes for lunch and that's it.

Katy Weber She Her (46:51.498)
workplaces are more productive. Like people are really performing better, but there's just this mentality of like, no, we don't know what you're doing. And if we can't control when you're at your desk and what you're, you know, how many breaks you're taking, we need to have you in the office so we can watch you. And you're like, but all evidence is pointing to the contrary. And they're like, it doesn't matter. Yeah.

Caryn Gill (46:53.677)
Right.

Caryn Gill (47:02.503)
Oh, it makes me sick.

Caryn Gill (47:06.518)
Right. Right.

Caryn Gill (47:11.326)
Right, or like you get penalized if you're like caught off task, like there's like programs and softwares that like companies will use to track like where you're clicking. Yeah, not even just mass movement, but like where are you clicking? And how long are you away from like your computer? And like that's messed up. Like who cares how long it takes me? Like, you know, it's just so bizarre to me. But yeah, so.

Katy Weber She Her (47:21.374)
Your mouse move. I know. I know, right? Yeah.

Katy Weber She Her (47:26.496)
Yeah.

Katy Weber She Her (47:35.7)
Yeah.

Caryn Gill (47:37.202)
I lovingly refer to it as like hot mess disorder. I think it also, you know, attention regulation, hyperactivity syndrome maybe, or like setting like brain settings, like I don't know, yeah.

Katy Weber She Her (47:47.169)
Yeah, I like syndrome too because it's true.

Katy Weber She Her (47:53.642)
Well, and I feel like to, like you said, when I was first started this podcast, and I still don't even really have an answer to this, where I'm like, what are we talking about when we talk about ADHD? Are we talking about a brain type, a neuro type, that in certain environments ends up in distress? And so the ADHD is the distress behaviors, is that the ADHD? And so the neuro type is something separate or is the neuro type ADHD? And...

Katy Weber She Her (48:21.678)
And everybody is prone to this, right? So it's like, what is universal? What isn't? Because our, obviously our experiences are also different, but then you look at certain cultures where ADHD quote unquote doesn't exist and you're like, well, is that because the culture is much more friendly to this neuro type or are they refusing to acknowledge it, like all of these ways in which I'm like, what are we talking about when we talk about ADHD? I still don't really know. It's like everything. And

Caryn Gill (48:40.15)
Right, it is interesting, yeah.

Caryn Gill (48:46.797)
Right.

Katy Weber She Her (48:48.594)
all of it all wrapped up into one, but it's very, it's really frustrating when I see in psychology textbooks talking about ADHD, like it's this disorder where it's like people with ADHD are prone to alcoholism. And you're like, well, it's a lot more complicated and nuanced than that. Right?

Caryn Gill (48:50.67)
Right.

Caryn Gill (49:05.696)
Yeah, it's like, well, why? I think like my biggest question I always want to ask is like, well, why? Right? Like, what is behind that? Right?

Katy Weber She Her (49:10.63)
Exactly. I'm like, they're all... Right? You're prone to self- You're prone to substance abuse because you're self-medicating because you're struggling and nobody realizes it. And like, you know, I'm like, there's so much there. Just, you know, but...

Caryn Gill (49:18.89)
Right, where it feels good and you're just impulsive and you have like blindness to like, you forget your working memory is bad. Like, you know, it could be for so many reasons. Like, you can get people with ADHD who also struggle with alcohol use and it could be all for different reasons, right? So yeah, it's so interesting.

Katy Weber She Her (49:29.552)
Exactly, yeah.

Katy Weber She Her (49:38.942)
Yeah, see, there's that inherent ambiguity again, that's driving me crazy. I need answers. Awesome. All right. Well, thank you so much for, for sharing your perspective. I love it. It was just great. So now your website is, uh, Karen Gill therapy.com, right? Uh, and so do you still work? You do still work? Uh, I know you're based in Pennsylvania, but you, you're, um, certified in

Caryn Gill (49:46.003)
Yeah, it is interesting. Yeah, it's just so much fun, yeah.

Caryn Gill (49:59.845)
Yeah, definitely.

Caryn Gill (50:05.719)
Okay.

Katy Weber She Her (50:07.971)
you're licensed in a bunch of different states. Do you still do telehealth?

Caryn Gill (50:12.063)
Yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah, I'm doing telehealth still for the most part, um, uh, in Pennsylvania, Connecticut, Missouri, and California. And I joke, people are like, why Missouri? And I'm like, honestly, it was easy. Like, as soon as there was like obstacles of like, oh, you have to contact your old two. I was like, no, next, next.

Katy Weber She Her (50:24.25)
Ha ha ha!

Katy Weber She Her (50:30.06)
Ugh.

Caryn Gill (50:33.724)
So that's how I got licensed in all those states. I was like, it's just easier, like less obstacles. So yeah.

Katy Weber She Her (50:40.794)
Oh, that's another thing. I have a huge advocate of the counseling compact, especially because I'm in New York and New York doesn't have any counseling compacts even on the table. And I'm like, we have like with, with people moving and telehealth and tele, you know, an online virtual therapy, like there needs to be more. Cross state certification. That's crazy.

Caryn Gill (50:46.114)
Yes!

Caryn Gill (50:50.314)
Yeah.

Caryn Gill (50:57.322)
Right.

Caryn Gill (51:01.742)
Yeah, psychologists have it, you know, I think. Uh, yeah, it doesn't... Oh, really, I didn't know that.

Katy Weber She Her (51:04.83)
Yeah. Dentists have it right. I mean, basically I think most medical professionals have it at this point. Right. I mean, it's worked into their, um, licensure, but anyway, that's another episode. Um, so that's also okay. So, and is there another, what's the best way that people can get in touch with you and reach you?

Caryn Gill (51:16.278)
Yeah. Heheheheh.

Caryn Gill (51:24.618)
Yeah, so I have an Instagram account. It's at therapist.karen, like C-A-R-Y-N, on Instagram. That's kind of like where I'm most active, honestly. Like my website just kind of exists as like a professional placeholder. I don't like blog. I would love to blog. I probably could blog, because my captions are super long. They're essentially blog posts. But again, that's a whole, you know, understandably it's like another thing I have to do.

Katy Weber She Her (51:47.515)
Ha ha ha ha ha

Caryn Gill (51:53.666)
But yeah, so that's kind of what I've been doing, private practice. I've kind of been working on different workshops and mini courses as well. And so that's all kind of in the works.

Katy Weber She Her (52:07.822)
Oh, amazing. Okay, well, I'll put a link to your Instagram and your website. And if you're already writing Instagram captions, just make those your blog posts repurpose.

Caryn Gill (52:16.19)
I know in theory, I know that that would actually be super easy, right? But I think it's time to do it.

Katy Weber She Her (52:22.007)
Those are the things that like, right? Well, I'm like, those are the things that never occur to me that you can do that. And then every, and once in a while I'm like, oh yeah. Like I could totally repurpose that stuff, but anyway.

Caryn Gill (52:32.658)
Right. I think I'm in my head. I'm like, it's so daunting and in reality would probably take like five minutes just to do I just gotta do it, right? Yeah, thank you so much. Thanks for having me.

Katy Weber She Her (52:44.378)
Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Karen. It's been a real pleasure chatting with you. Thanks for sharing.